Why DBT people "believe" our music perception be "overrated" ??? - cheap-Jack

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Topic - DBT Proponents --- Where do they get their confidence? - bjh 11:15:45 12/09/06 (353)

I am in a curious position posting on this. I teach research methods and think statistics have little value in audio. - Norm 06:35:21 12/11/06 (117)

Re: I am in a curious position posting on this. I teach research methods and think statistics have little value in audio - RGA 06:24:27 12/19/06 (0)

For those not usually inclined to read through a very long "debate..." - robert young 14:50:38 12/16/06 (3)

Re: For those not usually inclined to read through a very long "debate..." - Pat D 07:11:07 12/18/06 (0)

Re: For those not usually inclined to read through a very long "debate..." - Analog Scott 12:04:46 12/17/06 (1)

...and now for something completely different......(nt) - robert young 12:26:51 12/17/06 (0)

Thanks guys ... - bjh 09:03:03 12/14/06 (11)

Re: Thanks guys ... - kerr 09:16:13 12/15/06 (10)

Re: Thanks guys ... - andy19191 15:03:18 12/15/06 (9)

Re: Thanks guys ... - kerr 17:19:19 12/16/06 (8)

Re: Thanks guys ... - andy19191 02:20:35 12/18/06 (7)

Re: Thanks guys ... - kerr 04:43:31 12/18/06 (6)

Re: Thanks guys ... - andy19191 07:34:06 12/18/06 (5)

Re: Thanks guys ... - kerr 09:33:42 12/18/06 (4)

Re: Thanks guys ... - andy19191 02:42:17 12/19/06 (3)

Re: Thanks guys ... - kerr 04:50:10 12/19/06 (2)

Re: Thanks guys ... - andy19191 03:09:00 12/20/06 (1)

Re: Thanks guys ... - kerr 09:12:26 12/20/06 (0)

I agree Norm. There's great humor in audio..... - Don T 07:50:36 12/14/06 (0)

Re: I am in a curious position posting on this. I teach research methods and think statistics have little value in audio - Todd Krieger 00:10:59 12/14/06 (1)

I am not saying that a technical knowledge would not be helpful - Norm 06:32:51 12/14/06 (0)

I am curious what DBT advocates do themselves - Analog Scott 18:46:45 12/13/06 (71)

Re: I am curious what DBT advocates do themselves - Pat D 15:52:45 12/14/06 (69)

"Why on earth does anyone need to validate their experience? And how on earth could it be done with a DBT?" The irony! - Analog Scott 22:15:05 12/14/06 (68)

Nonsense: YOU came up with the concept of validating experiences, so YOU get to explain it. - Pat D 02:26:09 12/15/06 (67)

LOL I can up with the idea of validating experiences? Just what is an objectivist asking for when they demand DBTs ? - Analog Scott 08:50:11 12/15/06 (38)

Please explain your own term: "validation of subjectivists' perceptions." - Pat D 12:14:51 12/15/06 (37)

Just look up each word in the dictionary and put the idea together for yourself. nt - Analog Scott 23:33:38 12/15/06 (31)

So you really don't know what you meant! But I already knew that. - Pat D 07:41:18 12/16/06 (30)

That is a truly pathetic - Analog Scott 08:56:09 12/16/06 (29)

Yes, you say things so confused that you can't explain what you mean by them. - Pat D 09:44:48 12/16/06 (28)

dude do you do anything besides chasing your tail? - Analog Scott 10:20:59 12/16/06 (27)

I just trying to chase down your allegation. - Pat D 11:03:41 12/16/06 (26)

That's reaaly sad. You tried to chase a simple concept and followed your tail round and round instead. nt - Analog Scott 11:42:30 12/16/06 (25)

No specifics, no data, no references. (nt) - Pat D 11:48:11 12/16/06 (24)

Wrong. - Analog Scott 16:39:29 12/16/06 (23)

Nope. Here's one of your posts. - Pat D 19:37:06 12/17/06 (22)

Yes and if you read it and understand it you would see that you are wrong - Analog Scott 21:36:34 12/17/06 (21)

I understand well enough that you make up silly opinions for me. - Pat D 06:27:03 12/18/06 (20)

In reality you make up silly opinions of me and offer no support - Analog Scott 09:30:23 12/18/06 (19)

Come on, tell Unca' Pat what's troubling you! (nt) - Pat D 17:04:04 12/18/06 (18)

I have. you still don't get it - Analog Scott 17:08:39 12/18/06 (17)

I get it that you make a lot of allegations about what my opinions are but provide no evidence. - Pat D 18:01:46 12/18/06 (16)

No you are just making things up about me and providing no evidence to support it - Analog Scott 20:39:58 12/18/06 (15)

I gave a link to your false statements about me--where's your support for your false statements? - Pat D 20:46:35 12/18/06 (14)

wrong again - Analog Scott 21:25:12 12/18/06 (13)

Please provide evidence your "flase" statements are true. (nt) - Pat D 05:36:43 12/19/06 (12)

Please provide evidence my true statements are false. (nt) - Analog Scott 22:32:10 12/19/06 (0)

Evidence Of One Of Pat D-Cakes "false" Statements! - thetubeguy1954 09:09:47 12/19/06 (10)

Where's the false statement? Evidence please. (nt) - Pat D 09:42:31 12/19/06 (9)

Evidence Of Pat D-Cakes "false" Statements! (Lies?0 - thetubeguy1954 12:52:58 12/19/06 (8)

Holy $hit - E-Stat 14:05:39 12/19/06 (7)

Do you understand the concept of suspending judgment when evidence is not available? - Pat D 14:50:13 12/19/06 (6)

Ah, so that is what you call your non-positions! - E-Stat 15:09:56 12/19/06 (5)

So you agree that I don't assert the null hypothesis! - Pat D 00:15:47 12/20/06 (4)

You continue to illustrate the point most vividly - E-Stat 05:32:11 12/20/06 (3)

Well, that's the issue. TG54 insists that I believe something which I do not. - Pat D 17:20:41 12/20/06 (2)

The Issue YOU Deny What You Say - thetubeguy1954 09:30:50 12/21/06 (1)

I say "some" and you somehow understand "every" or "none." - Pat D 18:00:55 12/21/06 (0)

A Bunburyist - kerr 13:40:20 12/15/06 (4)

I thought *everyone* knew ... poor Pat-D-cat, talk about green behind the ears! nt - bjh 13:47:32 12/15/06 (0)

Addendum - kerr 13:41:37 12/15/06 (2)

I'll supply a hint: it's found in a play by Oscar Wilde. - Pat D 15:34:46 12/15/06 (1)

Re: I'll supply a hint: it's found in a play by Oscar Wilde. - kerr 16:36:35 12/16/06 (0)

Pat, Pat, calm down Pat, stop screaming. It's not good for you health Pat. nt - bjh 04:26:58 12/15/06 (27)

He has to scream - Analog Scott 08:55:04 12/15/06 (19)

Testable claims. - Pat D 10:28:59 12/15/06 (16)

Your claims are testable but you don't test them. Why? nt - Analog Scott 16:38:33 12/16/06 (15)

Changing your ground, again? Well, you can lead the horse to the water . . . (nt) - Pat D 18:25:00 12/16/06 (14)

Why all the posturing? Why not just answer straight questions with straight answers? - Analog Scott 18:59:50 12/16/06 (13)

Because you evidently don't read what I do say. - Pat D 20:52:20 12/16/06 (12)

no you don't read what I say. nt - Analog Scott 11:58:47 12/17/06 (11)

I certainly can read your false statements about me. - Pat D 18:33:46 12/17/06 (10)

How? none exist - Analog Scott 21:37:37 12/17/06 (9)

You still provide no evidence. (nt) - Pat D 06:59:51 12/18/06 (8)

Thanks for admitting you provided no evidence for your assertions. - Analog Scott 09:32:17 12/18/06 (7)

You provide no evidence I have made those assertions in the first place. - Pat D 17:10:45 12/18/06 (6)

so now you are denying all your previous assertions? - Analog Scott 21:26:39 12/18/06 (5)

What previous assertions? Links please. (nt) - Pat D 05:35:13 12/19/06 (4)

You don't know what you asserted? - Analog Scott 22:10:37 12/20/06 (0)

Links Provided! - thetubeguy1954 14:06:05 12/19/06 (2)

Which don't say what you allege. - Pat D 14:56:53 12/19/06 (1)

What are you babbling about? - Analog Scott 15:13:39 12/22/06 (0)

The REAL Pat D Revealed At Last - thetubeguy1954 09:17:08 12/15/06 (0)

To be fair to objectivists ... - bjh 09:01:02 12/15/06 (0)

Ahhh, so you can't explain it, either! (nt) - Pat D 07:04:00 12/15/06 (6)

Pat, let's address the core issue, shall we? - bjh 07:38:48 12/15/06 (5)

"I, of course, admit the foregoing is a case of unsubstianted speculation " --Errr . . yeah, glad to hear it. - Pat D 07:55:24 12/15/06 (4)

Okey dokey, ignore the advice, - bjh 08:13:45 12/15/06 (3)

OK: Explain how to answer nonsensical questions and straw man arguments. - Pat D 08:43:55 12/15/06 (2)

Pest nt - bjh 08:56:21 12/15/06 (1)

I didn't think you'd know. (nt) - Pat D 10:53:11 12/15/06 (0)

Also if you hear something that is beyond your means, is it your imagination that makes it sound no different? nt - Norm 20:38:06 12/13/06 (1)

I think you're mixing apples and orangutans - lipmanl@hotmail.com 12:48:20 12/12/06 (1)

I have been at the hobby for over 40 years. Yes equipment is far superior to the old equipment, but - Norm 16:14:20 12/12/06 (0)

Yea. this is human freedom, our right. (nt) - cheap-Jack 08:33:13 12/12/06 (0)

"this is a hobby where we are not participating in the advancement of knowledge" (it doesn't have to be so mystical) - Richard BassNut Greene 13:04:45 12/11/06 (21)

It is fine for some to seek trivia about their hobbies, this has nothing to do with advancing science. Neither does DBT. - Norm 16:46:46 12/11/06 (20)

ummm, Norm? - jneutron 10:53:18 12/12/06 (6)

What? You dare question Richard's tag line?!!! - Pat D 02:34:14 12/15/06 (4)

Re: What? You dare question Richard's tag line?!!! - bjh 05:41:01 12/15/06 (3)

Re: What? You dare question Richard's tag line?!!! - jneutron 07:05:01 12/15/06 (2)

Well I doubt I could find anything that you'd find - bjh 07:55:07 12/15/06 (1)

Re: Well I doubt I could find anything that you'd find - jneutron 09:13:41 12/15/06 (0)

I know, but I thought it suited my point on this question. nt - Norm 14:04:44 12/12/06 (0)

In the Stereophile blind amplifier test people heard "differences" 62% of the time when an amp was compared with itself - Richard BassNut Greene 08:47:33 12/12/06 (11)

38% weren't fooled - they must be the "Golden Ears" you talk about....(nt) - mkuller 09:33:33 12/14/06 (1)

It was a Stereopile test -- they all had to be members of the Golden Ear club to participate = sad results! - Richard BassNut Greene 09:51:45 12/14/06 (0)

In my view... - Wellfed 00:09:02 12/13/06 (7)

I too don't like dogmatic individuals, but their activity here little affects anyone, IMHO. - Norm 06:31:22 12/13/06 (6)

Unfortunately... - Wellfed 07:10:57 12/13/06 (5)

Your error is assuming that any substantial percentage of audiophiles monitor AA. I know many who do not. - Norm 16:14:20 12/13/06 (4)

I was thinking in more general terms... - Wellfed 17:28:42 12/13/06 (3)

As the saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water..." I suspect that controversy helps alert people. - Norm 07:40:14 12/14/06 (2)

It's my understanding... - Wellfed 07:43:03 12/14/06 (1)

None of my acquaintances are like that. I can see asking that a demo of equipment be without tweaks. nt - Norm 13:47:21 12/14/06 (0)

Salemen of course want you to buy. I have not bought components from salesmen in 20 years. - Norm 14:20:06 12/12/06 (0)

So what? - E-Stat 17:35:29 12/11/06 (0)

Re: DBT Proponents --- Where do they get their confidence? - Todd Krieger 19:43:48 12/10/06 (35)

Why DBT people "believe" our music perception be "overrated" ??? - cheap-Jack 08:29:12 12/11/06 (34)

Not one objective audiophile has had the same Golden Ear experience (fantasy) claimed by the Golden Ears - Richard BassNut Greene 13:16:12 12/11/06 (33)

Liar, liar, pants on fire... - mkuller 19:37:43 12/14/06 (9)

Mr. Kuller must think 30 feet of 16 gauge and 24 gauge cables is a normal high fidelity use. - Pat D 20:39:35 12/14/06 (8)

You seem to be assuming... - mkuller 10:29:18 12/15/06 (0)

Why does *your* choice in speaker wire always come up in these discussions? LOL nt - bjh 21:46:36 12/14/06 (6)

Nope! For 4 ohm speakers that's sub-par. - Pat D 02:31:46 12/15/06 (5)

OMG, the Roger Russell research, the gig's up now ... The Horror, The Horror! LOL nt - bjh 05:13:38 12/15/06 (4)

So you think 30 feet of 24 gauge speaker wire is good for hi-fi? - Pat D 07:27:20 12/15/06 (3)

Pat give up the idle presumption, would you? A nasty habbit ,... - bjh 08:17:48 12/15/06 (2)

Oh, so you agree with Roger Russell about 24 gauge wire. Then stop whining! (nt) - Pat D 08:38:28 12/15/06 (1)

Pest! nt - bjh 08:40:07 12/15/06 (0)

A Word of Advice..... - Todd Krieger 09:34:37 12/12/06 (0)

Now that's rich. Are you suggesting objectivists are immune - Analog Scott 17:30:54 12/11/06 (10)

Yes, subjectivists are most likely dominated by the effects of bias for electronics and especially wires - Richard BassNut Greene 09:17:31 12/12/06 (8)

Now you are just fooling yourself. Nice job. - Analog Scott 14:21:22 12/12/06 (7)

You ought to learn something before expounding. - Pat D 17:16:52 12/12/06 (6)

You ought to learn something about bias effects - Analog Scott 11:45:05 12/16/06 (0)

Pat do you need explaining that one test a *trend* does not make? Besides that - bjh 20:56:55 12/12/06 (4)

Still, they heard differences with most of the program material. - Pat D 04:49:24 12/13/06 (3)

Another Pat-D-cake *says nothing* post ... talk about large-N! LOL nt - bjh 06:55:28 12/13/06 (2)

Oh, was there some point you were trying to make? (nt) - Pat D 07:33:40 12/13/06 (1)

Give the guy a break. It's hard to type while jumping up and down stamping one's feet and screaming - Richard BassNut Greene 09:01:33 12/14/06 (0)

No, objectionists are like your & me, NOT immune to the sonic difference. - cheap-Jack 07:09:32 12/12/06 (0)

Re: Not one objective audiophile has had the same Golden Ear experience (fantasy) claimed by the Golden Ears - rick_m 15:41:38 12/11/06 (9)

All audiophiles thought they had golden ears at one time - Richard BassNut Greene 09:39:31 12/12/06 (8)

Re: All audiophiles thought they had golden ears at one time - thetubeguy1954 10:14:11 12/13/06 (4)

Why would anyone care? - Richard BassNut Greene 09:23:06 12/14/06 (3)

Re: Why would anyone care? - john curl 19:44:19 12/15/06 (1)

Then I guess you haven't learned much in twenty years - Richard BassNut Greene 09:04:37 12/18/06 (0)

You've Made The Subjectvists Arguement For Them. - thetubeguy1954 14:25:54 12/14/06 (0)

Re: All audiophiles thought they had golden ears at one time - rick_m 11:05:30 12/12/06 (2)

"blind testing is always an advantage" - Richard BassNut Greene 09:46:45 12/14/06 (1)

Re: "blind testing is always an advantage" - rick_m 12:42:46 12/14/06 (0)

Gross accusation across the board, bud. - cheap-Jack 13:49:41 12/11/06 (0)

Well good, they're home safe and sound ... glad to be of service. I'll send the bill ... until next time. nt - bjh 18:47:33 12/10/06 (0)

Re: DBT Proponents --- Where do they get their confidence? - TomLarson 12:02:07 12/09/06 (1)

Re: DBT Proponents --- Where do they get their confidence? - bjh 12:16:15 12/09/06 (0)

You've never been more wrong -- 180 degress away from reality this time ! So now I'm suspicious this is a set-up! - Richard BassNut Greene 12:20:08 12/09/06 (15)

Hey dumb dumb, the issue is elementary statistics. Try to reign in your paranoia - bjh 12:25:41 12/09/06 (12)

I completely refuted the statistics in my post (Leventhal confused 16 votes with 16 A-B comparisons and was WAY off - Richard BassNut Greene 12:34:27 12/09/06 (11)

Slow down, breath deep, spit out the mud, and - bjh 12:37:49 12/09/06 (10)

There was a Dave Clark (audio consultant) letter at Stereophile.com thoroughly refuting Leventhal's anti-ABX nonsense - Richard BassNut Greene 12:42:25 12/09/06 (9)

I'm starting to fell more than a little guilty ... - bjh 14:06:03 12/09/06 (8)

A summary of Les Leventhal (his errors about blind tests ... and his attacks on sighted listening bias that you ignored) - Richard BassNut Greene 08:26:34 12/11/06 (6)

Guess you were hoping I wouldn't be back to respond ... - bjh 10:21:03 12/11/06 (5)

You're back and clueless as usual. Type 2 errors still are not possible. - Richard BassNut Greene 10:27:13 12/11/06 (4)

More nonsense. Type II errors are always present if you use a sample. - Norm 07:51:21 12/14/06 (3)

If you do not try to prove two components sound the same, then a false conclusion that they do is impossible. - Richard BassNut Greene 09:58:39 12/14/06 (2)

I used to think you knew something about research design. nt - Norm 07:10:34 12/15/06 (0)

Keep working it Richard, soon you'll manage to make the Type I errors evaporate as well ... Perfect DBTs Forever. LOL nt - bjh 19:10:24 12/14/06 (0)

Re: I'm starting to fell more than a little guilty ... - Pat D 15:11:04 12/09/06 (0)

Kinda sad you have to use make believe to support your beliefs - Analog Scott 14:50:19 12/09/06 (1)

Re: Kinda sad you have to use make believe to support your beliefs - john curl 19:42:36 12/13/06 (0)

Where do they get their confidence (from Science) - tomservo 14:11:07 12/09/06 (142)

You didn't rephrase my question, you asked a different question. - bjh 14:43:22 12/09/06 (2)

Re: You didn't rephrase my question, you asked a different question. - tomservo 16:29:20 12/09/06 (1)

Again, if you'd like to address my question.... As for your's ... go start yer own thread for goodness sake! nt - bjh 17:21:24 12/09/06 (0)

From science? Were that only true. - Analog Scott 14:47:15 12/09/06 (126)

Re: From science? Were that only true. - andy19191 02:51:40 12/11/06 (73)

I agree that it isn't a scientific research topic - Analog Scott 17:32:47 12/11/06 (72)

Re: I agree that it isn't a scientific research topic - andy19191 00:34:11 12/12/06 (71)

Re: I agree that it isn't a scientific research topic - Analog Scott 07:18:40 12/12/06 (70)

Re: I agree that it isn't a scientific research topic - andy19191 09:38:55 12/12/06 (69)

You are free to suggest/believe what ever you want - Analog Scott 12:41:05 12/12/06 (68)

Re: You are free to suggest/believe what ever you want - andy19191 06:06:41 12/13/06 (67)

audibility is not a technical topic - Analog Scott 13:22:06 12/13/06 (66)

Re: audibility is not a technical topic - andy19191 02:19:06 12/14/06 (0)

ROTFLOL!! Errr . . . . it's part of pyschoacoustics. - Pat D 13:48:50 12/13/06 (64)

Sorry you didn't understand the point - Analog Scott 17:25:27 12/13/06 (63)

Perception isn't the issue, but detection. - Pat D 19:26:01 12/13/06 (62)

No perception is the issue. What else is there in the end in audio? nt - Analog Scott 20:07:53 12/13/06 (61)

But how do you establish what you perceive is due to the equipment? - Pat D 05:51:12 12/14/06 (60)

Why do I need to establish what I perceive is due to the equipment? - Analog Scott 00:05:06 12/16/06 (24)

You don't! Ah, so many confusions . . . - Pat D 09:27:03 12/16/06 (23)

You do seem to be quite confused - Analog Scott 10:22:37 12/16/06 (22)

Ahh, here's the guy who set out to "expose" me! Reduced to muttering epigrams . . . - Pat D 10:59:12 12/16/06 (21)

You have been exposed even if you don't see it... - Analog Scott 16:37:19 12/16/06 (20)

In your dreams, maybe . . . - Pat D 18:45:43 12/16/06 (19)

No, it is clear to anyone who wants to read this thread - Analog Scott 19:04:33 12/16/06 (18)

I have no obligation to defend things you make up for me. (nt) - Pat D 21:09:42 12/16/06 (17)

prove that I am making things up? - Analog Scott 12:00:28 12/17/06 (16)

Child's play, my son. - Pat D 18:26:39 12/17/06 (15)

And yet you fail to do so - Analog Scott 21:39:06 12/17/06 (14)

The "failure" is your failure to provide evidence for your allegations. (nt) - Pat D 06:57:30 12/18/06 (13)

Wrong again. You are the one failing to provide any evidence for your assertions - Analog Scott 09:34:06 12/18/06 (12)

John Clease is a comedian, isn't he? - Pat D 17:54:56 12/18/06 (11)

You are just catching on? - Analog Scott 20:41:03 12/18/06 (10)

I have known for some time you haven't been interested in carrying on an honest discussion. - Pat D 20:53:04 12/18/06 (9)

Only when it became clear you were not interested in an honest discussion - Analog Scott 21:28:46 12/18/06 (8)

Did you ever meet Echo? (nt) - Pat D 05:38:34 12/19/06 (7)

Thank you for finally conceding my point. - Analog Scott 22:33:47 12/19/06 (6)

You had a point? And how are you and Echo getting along? (nt) - Pat D 23:09:10 12/19/06 (5)

Sorry you lack the smarts to understand what is being said - Analog Scott 22:12:48 12/20/06 (4)

I do have the smarts to realize one can't prove the null hypothesis. - Pat D 07:08:54 12/21/06 (3)

You don't have the smarts to understnad what is being said though. So how - Analog Scott 15:15:13 12/22/06 (2)

Are you trying to see how far off the screen we can get this thread to go? (nt) - Pat D 18:02:49 12/23/06 (1)

No. Are you? - Analog Scott 09:04:08 12/24/06 (0)

Bowing At The JJ Alter Pat? - thetubeguy1954 07:57:01 12/14/06 (34)

jj is a world-class expert in audio DBTs. - Pat D 08:55:44 12/14/06 (33)

He also doesn't insist that audiophiles do DBTs nt - Analog Scott 00:06:21 12/16/06 (24)

Neither do I. - Pat D 09:58:16 12/16/06 (23)

LOL - Analog Scott 11:47:11 12/16/06 (22)

I have no obligation to defend figments of your imagination. (nt) - Pat D 21:05:43 12/16/06 (21)

You are the one imagining things - Analog Scott 12:01:43 12/17/06 (20)

I'm not imagining this post full of false statements about me. - Pat D 18:35:47 12/17/06 (19)

You are imagining a great deal. - Analog Scott 21:40:46 12/17/06 (18)

Have you no shame, sir? - Pat D 06:10:44 12/18/06 (17)

Have you no shame? You can't even cite one quote where I say anything untrue about you - Analog Scott 09:35:30 12/18/06 (16)

Where have I said you quoted me? Come on laddie! - Pat D 17:48:46 12/18/06 (9)

why are you asking yet another irrelevant question? - Analog Scott 20:42:26 12/18/06 (8)

You brought up the suject of quotations my son. So you now admit bringing up irrelevancies. (nt) - Pat D 20:49:35 12/18/06 (7)

No I did not bring up the topic of quotations per se - Analog Scott 21:30:49 12/18/06 (6)

Ah yes, more examples of good old Honest Analog Scott! - Pat D 05:41:21 12/19/06 (5)

Thank you for finally admitting I was the honest one. nt - Analog Scott 22:35:10 12/19/06 (4)

Irony is lost on you. (nt) - Pat D 23:11:10 12/19/06 (3)

If that were true you wouldn't be so amusing to me - Analog Scott 22:14:01 12/20/06 (2)

Yeah, I know. To amuse yourself you are willing to say anything, true or untrue. (nt) - Pat D 18:04:52 12/21/06 (1)

Wrong again - Analog Scott 15:16:26 12/22/06 (0)

Re: Have you no shame? You can't even cite one quote where I say anything untrue about you - thetubeguy1954 13:59:59 12/18/06 (5)

I'm glad to see you are starting to admit your shortcomings, Tom. - Pat D 17:52:07 12/18/06 (4)

You Keep Proving I'm Correct About You Pat - thetubeguy1954 07:35:58 12/19/06 (3)

Is this like where you tell us what you *would* hear in a DBT if you actually did one? - Pat D 07:52:56 12/19/06 (2)

No This Is Where You Change The Topic As Usual - thetubeguy1954 14:09:36 12/19/06 (1)

No, you just make empty promises. 9nt) - Pat D 14:59:56 12/19/06 (0)

In Your OPINION That Is... - thetubeguy1954 08:52:33 12/15/06 (2)

And oh yeah...jj is a Fellow of the AES. - Pat D 10:52:15 12/15/06 (0)

You really must learn about 'some' and 'every' . . . - Pat D 10:49:18 12/15/06 (0)

JJ, the guy who had a penchant for demanding apologies (seemed like every other post), - bjh 04:37:20 12/15/06 (4)

Were you one of those attacking his professional qualifications, and then refusing to apologize? - Pat D 07:22:22 12/15/06 (3)

"Felony"! Woah!, talk about drama! Oh I guess a little sympathy is called for, after all ... - bjh 07:47:09 12/15/06 (2)

You might look up the word "metaphor." - Pat D 07:57:48 12/15/06 (1)

Pest _nt - bjh 09:34:41 12/15/06 (0)

Maybe for some bad science is better than no science! Imagine that - bjh 14:50:46 12/09/06 (51)

Yes and just to push an agenda. The sad thing is - Analog Scott 14:57:27 12/09/06 (50)

What "agenda" is that? - Pat D 10:09:58 12/10/06 (49)

The age old agenda about so many things sounding the same - Analog Scott 11:26:07 12/10/06 (48)

Nope. We just want good methodology. - Pat D 13:04:24 12/10/06 (47)

I think the vocal objectivists want a double standard - Analog Scott 13:47:19 12/10/06 (46)

Analog Scott Give Up Pat D Is An Audio Politician - thetubeguy1954 14:14:32 12/11/06 (36)

Why didn't you quote the last line of my post? - Pat D 03:14:05 12/12/06 (2)

Re: Why didn't you quote the last line of my post? - thetubeguy1954 05:47:37 12/12/06 (1)

Re: Why didn't you quote the last line of my post? - Pat D 05:56:07 12/12/06 (0)

I agree with you in part. - Analog Scott 17:38:08 12/11/06 (32)

Re: I agree with you in part. - thetubeguy1954 14:17:35 12/12/06 (30)

But you did win. - Analog Scott 14:26:58 12/12/06 (29)

And what is this "audio politics?" - Pat D 16:37:50 12/12/06 (28)

This Is A PERFECT Example Of "Audio Politics?" - thetubeguy1954 07:19:49 12/13/06 (27)

Dear me! I thought this was an audio discussion forum devoted to technical matters. - Pat D 07:51:38 12/13/06 (26)

Another Audio Politican Post (Analog Scott Read This) - thetubeguy1954 12:49:37 12/13/06 (25)

Short questionnaire - Pat D 13:21:25 12/13/06 (24)

I have already addressed the double standard - Analog Scott 20:32:43 12/13/06 (23)

Analog Scott This Is Just More Pat D Audio Politics In Action. - thetubeguy1954 07:20:51 12/14/06 (7)

Man! You'll do anything to avoid proving your audio claims! - Pat D 12:17:37 12/14/06 (6)

It's Impossibel Prove Them To An Audio Politican Like You Pat - thetubeguy1954 06:58:10 12/15/06 (5)

See what I mean? TG54 continues to not prove his claims! (nt) - Pat D 07:42:37 12/15/06 (4)

See what I mean? Pat D-Cake Continues To Audio Politician !(nt) - thetubeguy1954 08:56:02 12/15/06 (3)

If only someone could explain what "audio politician" means . . . - Pat D 13:25:09 12/15/06 (2)

I gave you Bunburyist above - kerr 13:53:30 12/15/06 (1)

Re: I gave you Bunburyist above - Pat D 15:42:41 12/15/06 (0)

No, you haven't. You just made up a straw man 'belief' for me.. - Pat D 06:10:35 12/14/06 (14)

Yes I have. nt - Analog Scott 00:08:07 12/16/06 (13)

I'm glad to see you finally admit it. - Pat D 11:12:14 12/16/06 (12)

That I have addressed any relevant questions about your double standards? I admitted that a long time ago - Analog Scott 19:07:05 12/16/06 (11)

I have no obligation to defend positions I don't hold. (nt) - Pat D 21:01:12 12/16/06 (10)

You do hold them though. - Analog Scott 12:03:00 12/17/06 (9)

"can't deal " with what, my son? I certainly can deal with your false statements about me. - Pat D 18:31:54 12/17/06 (8)

Such as? - Analog Scott 21:42:26 12/17/06 (7)

You make a lot of false statement about what my opinions are but provide no evidence. See link. - Pat D 20:37:55 12/18/06 (3)

Failure to support your ridiculous alegations noted a second time.. - Analog Scott 20:43:45 12/18/06 (2)

Is "alegation" a sort of energy drink? (nt) - Pat D 20:57:19 12/18/06 (1)

No just a spelling error. something anyone with any smarts would see - Analog Scott 21:32:32 12/18/06 (0)

Failure to support your false alegations against me is duly noted. nt - Analog Scott 09:37:12 12/18/06 (2)

I thought "alegation" was a kind of sports drink. (nt) - Pat D 20:42:38 12/18/06 (1)

That makes sense givn what you think about audio and fair conversations. - Analog Scott 21:34:21 12/18/06 (0)

So, you guys want to make up opinions and attribute them to me. - Pat D 02:37:38 12/12/06 (0)

Again, what are so-called objectivist's "assertions on what is and is not audible "? - Pat D 16:46:18 12/10/06 (8)

Love your scenario - kerr 04:56:15 12/12/06 (5)

Re: Love your scenario - Pat D 16:48:22 12/12/06 (4)

Re: Love your scenario - kerr 04:18:07 12/13/06 (3)

Re: Love your scenario - Pat D 16:14:35 12/13/06 (2)

Re: Love your scenario - kerr 04:53:15 12/14/06 (1)

Re: Love your scenario - Pat D 20:58:50 12/14/06 (0)

I suggest you read your own previous post and look for your own assertions - Analog Scott 19:09:03 12/10/06 (1)

You'll have to come up with something more specific. - Pat D 05:40:40 12/11/06 (0)

More claims of omniscience - John Atkinson 17:26:28 12/09/06 (10)

Re: No claims of omniscience - tomservo 19:06:25 12/09/06 (9)

Sigh... - John Atkinson 07:54:07 12/10/06 (8)

Re: Sigh... - Steve Eddy 09:51:19 12/10/06 (0)

Re: Sigh... - tomservo 12:06:02 12/10/06 (6)

SH-50 question - Steve Eddy 19:39:29 12/10/06 (5)

Re: SH-50 question - tomservo 10:06:18 12/11/06 (4)

Re: SH-50 question - AJinFLA 03:36:47 12/12/06 (2)

Re: SH-50 question - tomservo 18:43:07 12/12/06 (1)

Re: SH-50 question - AJinFLA 13:17:56 12/13/06 (0)

Re: SH-50 question - Steve Eddy 22:14:56 12/11/06 (0)

The Audio Critic MFSL amp review - Atexanathome 10:26:29 12/10/06 (0)

Like Mr. Nut, they have Tin Ears... - mkuller 14:59:58 12/09/06 (7)

Children resort to insults when they have nothing intelligent to say -- I guess some adults too? - Richard BassNut Greene 08:31:46 12/11/06 (6)

Just because yer mom dresses ya funny doesn't mean I have nothing intelligent to say - kerr 05:22:41 12/12/06 (5)

because so many expensive stereos don't sound very good - Richard BassNut Greene 09:56:03 12/12/06 (4)

I always suspected your motives were purely altruistic... - mkuller 18:24:38 12/13/06 (0)

Re: because so many expensive stereos don't sound very good - kerr 12:31:40 12/12/06 (2)

Progress has nearly stalled with vinyl, tube two-channel audio that was obsolete a decade ago - Richard BassNut Greene 10:15:28 12/14/06 (1)

Again with your outrageous unproven Golden Eared claims... - mkuller 12:49:02 12/14/06 (0)

Straw man. - Pat D 15:24:09 12/09/06 (13)

"You will note that Leventhal's calculations of the probabilities of Type II errors depend on arbitrary assumptions." - bjh 15:37:55 12/09/06 (5)

Type 2 errors are not possible with blind tests. Leventhal was completely wrong about Type 2 errors which do not exist! - Richard BassNut Greene 08:44:44 12/11/06 (1)

Re: Type 2 errors are not possible with blind tests. Leventhal was completely wrong about Type 2 errors which do not ex - andy19191 01:56:55 12/12/06 (0)

Re: "You will note that Leventhal's calculations of the probabilities of Type II errors depend on arbitrary assumptions. - Pat D 15:50:26 12/09/06 (2)

Enough BS ... consider yourself ignored. nt - bjh 16:15:24 12/09/06 (1)

Can't understand the issues, eh? - Pat D 19:36:22 12/09/06 (0)

Re: Straw man. - regmac 09:00:44 12/10/06 (6)

Re: Straw man. - Pat D 09:56:39 12/10/06 (4)

Or not..... - Sordidman 16:06:24 12/10/06 (3)

Re: Or not..... - Pat D 16:54:44 12/10/06 (2)

Oh, You, me, and everyone else, doesn't live in a literal world.... - Sordidman 23:02:17 12/10/06 (1)

Re: Oh, You, me, and everyone else, doesn't live in a literal world.... - Pat D 11:47:15 12/13/06 (0)

Speculation? My speculation is different....... - Sordidman 15:41:51 12/10/06 (0)

THANKFULLY this s a DBT free zone - hifitommy 17:11:45 12/09/06 (1)

I Think That Only Applies to Cable Asylum.... - Todd Krieger 12:01:12 12/12/06 (0)

Re: DBT Proponents --- Where do they get their confidence? - tomservo 19:28:04 12/09/06 (2)

The real crux of the DBT problem. - thetubeguy1954 11:41:04 12/15/06 (0)

Good answer! Certainly the basic premise is indisputable. - bjh 23:19:40 12/09/06 (0)

Simple concept really. What about Toole's work?? - Robert Hamel 19:44:24 12/09/06 (1)

The reason not to cite toole's work is because - Analog Scott 12:23:49 12/10/06 (0)

Re: DBT Proponents --- Where do they get their confidence? - andy19191 08:44:50 12/10/06 (7)

OMG! Does not one else notice the raging Pat-D-cake epidemic? - bjh 09:29:55 12/10/06 (6)

You're question is very undefined: confidence in *what*? - Pat D 10:15:34 12/10/06 (0)

Re: OMG! Does not one else notice the raging Pat-D-cake epidemic? - andy19191 11:54:47 12/10/06 (4)

"He has pointed out flaws in your arguments ..." - bjh 12:33:13 12/10/06 (3)

Re: "He has pointed out flaws in your arguments ..." - Pat D 13:14:03 12/10/06 (2)

"I have not said that statistical his analysis is invalidated" I know that Pat, you never *say* anything ... - bjh 10:37:11 12/11/06 (1)

You whine even when I say the same thing Leventhal does . . . - Pat D 11:25:21 12/13/06 (0)

Follow Ups

Why DBT people "believe" our music perception be "overrated" ??? - cheap-Jack 08:29:12 12/11/06 (34)

Not one objective audiophile has had the same Golden Ear experience (fantasy) claimed by the Golden Ears - Richard BassNut Greene 13:16:12 12/11/06 (33)

Liar, liar, pants on fire... - mkuller 19:37:43 12/14/06 (9)

Mr. Kuller must think 30 feet of 16 gauge and 24 gauge cables is a normal high fidelity use. - Pat D 20:39:35 12/14/06 (8)

You seem to be assuming... - mkuller 10:29:18 12/15/06 (0)

Why does *your* choice in speaker wire always come up in these discussions? LOL nt - bjh 21:46:36 12/14/06 (6)

Nope! For 4 ohm speakers that's sub-par. - Pat D 02:31:46 12/15/06 (5)

OMG, the Roger Russell research, the gig's up now ... The Horror, The Horror! LOL nt - bjh 05:13:38 12/15/06 (4)

So you think 30 feet of 24 gauge speaker wire is good for hi-fi? - Pat D 07:27:20 12/15/06 (3)

Pat give up the idle presumption, would you? A nasty habbit ,... - bjh 08:17:48 12/15/06 (2)

Oh, so you agree with Roger Russell about 24 gauge wire. Then stop whining! (nt) - Pat D 08:38:28 12/15/06 (1)

Pest! nt - bjh 08:40:07 12/15/06 (0)

A Word of Advice..... - Todd Krieger 09:34:37 12/12/06 (0)

Now that's rich. Are you suggesting objectivists are immune - Analog Scott 17:30:54 12/11/06 (10)

Yes, subjectivists are most likely dominated by the effects of bias for electronics and especially wires - Richard BassNut Greene 09:17:31 12/12/06 (8)

Now you are just fooling yourself. Nice job. - Analog Scott 14:21:22 12/12/06 (7)

You ought to learn something before expounding. - Pat D 17:16:52 12/12/06 (6)

You ought to learn something about bias effects - Analog Scott 11:45:05 12/16/06 (0)

Pat do you need explaining that one test a *trend* does not make? Besides that - bjh 20:56:55 12/12/06 (4)

Still, they heard differences with most of the program material. - Pat D 04:49:24 12/13/06 (3)

Another Pat-D-cake *says nothing* post ... talk about large-N! LOL nt - bjh 06:55:28 12/13/06 (2)

Oh, was there some point you were trying to make? (nt) - Pat D 07:33:40 12/13/06 (1)

Give the guy a break. It's hard to type while jumping up and down stamping one's feet and screaming - Richard BassNut Greene 09:01:33 12/14/06 (0)

No, objectionists are like your & me, NOT immune to the sonic difference. - cheap-Jack 07:09:32 12/12/06 (0)

Re: Not one objective audiophile has had the same Golden Ear experience (fantasy) claimed by the Golden Ears - rick_m 15:41:38 12/11/06 (9)

All audiophiles thought they had golden ears at one time - Richard BassNut Greene 09:39:31 12/12/06 (8)

Re: All audiophiles thought they had golden ears at one time - thetubeguy1954 10:14:11 12/13/06 (4)

Why would anyone care? - Richard BassNut Greene 09:23:06 12/14/06 (3)

Re: Why would anyone care? - john curl 19:44:19 12/15/06 (1)

Then I guess you haven't learned much in twenty years - Richard BassNut Greene 09:04:37 12/18/06 (0)

You've Made The Subjectvists Arguement For Them. - thetubeguy1954 14:25:54 12/14/06 (0)

Re: All audiophiles thought they had golden ears at one time - rick_m 11:05:30 12/12/06 (2)

"blind testing is always an advantage" - Richard BassNut Greene 09:46:45 12/14/06 (1)

Re: "blind testing is always an advantage" - rick_m 12:42:46 12/14/06 (0)

Gross accusation across the board, bud. - cheap-Jack 13:49:41 12/11/06 (0)