In Reply to: DBT Proponents --- Where do they get their confidence? posted by bjh on December 9, 2006 at 11:15:45:
At least outside of high end hifi, it is a known fact that blind testing is often the only reliable way to extract data which would be corrupted by subjectivity (and be in error).
For example, research into medicine was stymied until blind testing could eliminate the placebo effect.
The problem is simple in audio too, people can be fooled, easily believe something they did or believe in has effected the sound.
For example, it is common story in Recording an Pro-sound to hear of an engineer laboriously tweaking an eq or other gear getting the sound “just rightâ€, only to find the bypass button pushed. In that industry at least, it is acknowledged that it is a real effect.The premise of blind testing in hifi audio after all is to see if there is a difference between A and B using only ones ears, without prior knowledge of which is which.
If you can hear an audible difference there is one, after that it is a matter of doing it ‘enough’ to satisfy the statistical mathematics if you care to.
The results are often enough to shake ones confidence in what you can hear though, but that is the point, when you rule out looks, what you think and prior knowledge, all that is left is what you hear.Further confusing the issue you have brought in the subject of magazines.
Keep in mind, their job (where the money comes from) is not from subscribers (although it does make one feel like your paying for valid information), it is from advertising.
There job IS NOT to make the story any more confusing that necessary, or find real differences for that matter. Drawing attention to problems or “issues†does not make advertisers happy.
I don’t recall ever seeing a bad review in a magazine where the mfr has advertised; again, magazines are a marketing agent for the mfr’s not a source of unbiased information.So, the question might be rephrased “What gives those that scoff at DBT’s the confidence that their world of hifi is entirely different than everything else around them?â€
“What gives them the confidence that they are different than the rest of human kind and free of these issues?â€Best,
Tom Danley
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Follow Ups
- Where do they get their confidence (from Science) - tomservo 14:11:07 12/09/06 (142)
- You didn't rephrase my question, you asked a different question. - bjh 14:43:22 12/09/06 (2)
- Re: You didn't rephrase my question, you asked a different question. - tomservo 16:29:20 12/09/06 (1)
- Again, if you'd like to address my question.... As for your's ... go start yer own thread for goodness sake! nt - bjh 17:21:24 12/09/06 (0)
- From science? Were that only true. - Analog Scott 14:47:15 12/09/06 (126)
- Re: From science? Were that only true. - andy19191 02:51:40 12/11/06 (73)
- I agree that it isn't a scientific research topic - Analog Scott 17:32:47 12/11/06 (72)
- Re: I agree that it isn't a scientific research topic - andy19191 00:34:11 12/12/06 (71)
- Re: I agree that it isn't a scientific research topic - Analog Scott 07:18:40 12/12/06 (70)
- Re: I agree that it isn't a scientific research topic - andy19191 09:38:55 12/12/06 (69)
- You are free to suggest/believe what ever you want - Analog Scott 12:41:05 12/12/06 (68)
- Re: You are free to suggest/believe what ever you want - andy19191 06:06:41 12/13/06 (67)
- audibility is not a technical topic - Analog Scott 13:22:06 12/13/06 (66)
- Re: audibility is not a technical topic - andy19191 02:19:06 12/14/06 (0)
- ROTFLOL!! Errr . . . . it's part of pyschoacoustics. - Pat D 13:48:50 12/13/06 (64)
- Sorry you didn't understand the point - Analog Scott 17:25:27 12/13/06 (63)
- Perception isn't the issue, but detection. - Pat D 19:26:01 12/13/06 (62)
- No perception is the issue. What else is there in the end in audio? nt - Analog Scott 20:07:53 12/13/06 (61)
- But how do you establish what you perceive is due to the equipment? - Pat D 05:51:12 12/14/06 (60)
- Why do I need to establish what I perceive is due to the equipment? - Analog Scott 00:05:06 12/16/06 (24)
- You don't! Ah, so many confusions . . . - Pat D 09:27:03 12/16/06 (23)
- You do seem to be quite confused - Analog Scott 10:22:37 12/16/06 (22)
- Ahh, here's the guy who set out to "expose" me! Reduced to muttering epigrams . . . - Pat D 10:59:12 12/16/06 (21)
- You have been exposed even if you don't see it... - Analog Scott 16:37:19 12/16/06 (20)
- In your dreams, maybe . . . - Pat D 18:45:43 12/16/06 (19)
- No, it is clear to anyone who wants to read this thread - Analog Scott 19:04:33 12/16/06 (18)
- I have no obligation to defend things you make up for me. (nt) - Pat D 21:09:42 12/16/06 (17)
- prove that I am making things up? - Analog Scott 12:00:28 12/17/06 (16)
- Child's play, my son. - Pat D 18:26:39 12/17/06 (15)
- And yet you fail to do so - Analog Scott 21:39:06 12/17/06 (14)
- The "failure" is your failure to provide evidence for your allegations. (nt) - Pat D 06:57:30 12/18/06 (13)
- Wrong again. You are the one failing to provide any evidence for your assertions - Analog Scott 09:34:06 12/18/06 (12)
- John Clease is a comedian, isn't he? - Pat D 17:54:56 12/18/06 (11)
- You are just catching on? - Analog Scott 20:41:03 12/18/06 (10)
- I have known for some time you haven't been interested in carrying on an honest discussion. - Pat D 20:53:04 12/18/06 (9)
- Only when it became clear you were not interested in an honest discussion - Analog Scott 21:28:46 12/18/06 (8)
- Did you ever meet Echo? (nt) - Pat D 05:38:34 12/19/06 (7)
- Thank you for finally conceding my point. - Analog Scott 22:33:47 12/19/06 (6)
- You had a point? And how are you and Echo getting along? (nt) - Pat D 23:09:10 12/19/06 (5)
- Sorry you lack the smarts to understand what is being said - Analog Scott 22:12:48 12/20/06 (4)
- I do have the smarts to realize one can't prove the null hypothesis. - Pat D 07:08:54 12/21/06 (3)
- You don't have the smarts to understnad what is being said though. So how - Analog Scott 15:15:13 12/22/06 (2)
- Are you trying to see how far off the screen we can get this thread to go? (nt) - Pat D 18:02:49 12/23/06 (1)
- No. Are you? - Analog Scott 09:04:08 12/24/06 (0)
- Bowing At The JJ Alter Pat? - thetubeguy1954 07:57:01 12/14/06 (34)
- jj is a world-class expert in audio DBTs. - Pat D 08:55:44 12/14/06 (33)
- He also doesn't insist that audiophiles do DBTs nt - Analog Scott 00:06:21 12/16/06 (24)
- Neither do I. - Pat D 09:58:16 12/16/06 (23)
- LOL - Analog Scott 11:47:11 12/16/06 (22)
- I have no obligation to defend figments of your imagination. (nt) - Pat D 21:05:43 12/16/06 (21)
- You are the one imagining things - Analog Scott 12:01:43 12/17/06 (20)
- I'm not imagining this post full of false statements about me. - Pat D 18:35:47 12/17/06 (19)
- You are imagining a great deal. - Analog Scott 21:40:46 12/17/06 (18)
- Have you no shame, sir? - Pat D 06:10:44 12/18/06 (17)
- Have you no shame? You can't even cite one quote where I say anything untrue about you - Analog Scott 09:35:30 12/18/06 (16)
- Where have I said you quoted me? Come on laddie! - Pat D 17:48:46 12/18/06 (9)
- why are you asking yet another irrelevant question? - Analog Scott 20:42:26 12/18/06 (8)
- You brought up the suject of quotations my son. So you now admit bringing up irrelevancies. (nt) - Pat D 20:49:35 12/18/06 (7)
- No I did not bring up the topic of quotations per se - Analog Scott 21:30:49 12/18/06 (6)
- Ah yes, more examples of good old Honest Analog Scott! - Pat D 05:41:21 12/19/06 (5)
- Thank you for finally admitting I was the honest one. nt - Analog Scott 22:35:10 12/19/06 (4)
- Irony is lost on you. (nt) - Pat D 23:11:10 12/19/06 (3)
- If that were true you wouldn't be so amusing to me - Analog Scott 22:14:01 12/20/06 (2)
- Yeah, I know. To amuse yourself you are willing to say anything, true or untrue. (nt) - Pat D 18:04:52 12/21/06 (1)
- Wrong again - Analog Scott 15:16:26 12/22/06 (0)
- Re: Have you no shame? You can't even cite one quote where I say anything untrue about you - thetubeguy1954 13:59:59 12/18/06 (5)
- I'm glad to see you are starting to admit your shortcomings, Tom. - Pat D 17:52:07 12/18/06 (4)
- You Keep Proving I'm Correct About You Pat - thetubeguy1954 07:35:58 12/19/06 (3)
- Is this like where you tell us what you *would* hear in a DBT if you actually did one? - Pat D 07:52:56 12/19/06 (2)
- No This Is Where You Change The Topic As Usual - thetubeguy1954 14:09:36 12/19/06 (1)
- No, you just make empty promises. 9nt) - Pat D 14:59:56 12/19/06 (0)
- In Your OPINION That Is... - thetubeguy1954 08:52:33 12/15/06 (2)
- And oh yeah...jj is a Fellow of the AES. - Pat D 10:52:15 12/15/06 (0)
- You really must learn about 'some' and 'every' . . . - Pat D 10:49:18 12/15/06 (0)
- JJ, the guy who had a penchant for demanding apologies (seemed like every other post), - bjh 04:37:20 12/15/06 (4)
- Were you one of those attacking his professional qualifications, and then refusing to apologize? - Pat D 07:22:22 12/15/06 (3)
- "Felony"! Woah!, talk about drama! Oh I guess a little sympathy is called for, after all ... - bjh 07:47:09 12/15/06 (2)
- You might look up the word "metaphor." - Pat D 07:57:48 12/15/06 (1)
- Pest _nt - bjh 09:34:41 12/15/06 (0)
- Maybe for some bad science is better than no science! Imagine that - bjh 14:50:46 12/09/06 (51)
- Yes and just to push an agenda. The sad thing is - Analog Scott 14:57:27 12/09/06 (50)
- What "agenda" is that? - Pat D 10:09:58 12/10/06 (49)
- The age old agenda about so many things sounding the same - Analog Scott 11:26:07 12/10/06 (48)
- Nope. We just want good methodology. - Pat D 13:04:24 12/10/06 (47)
- I think the vocal objectivists want a double standard - Analog Scott 13:47:19 12/10/06 (46)
- Analog Scott Give Up Pat D Is An Audio Politician - thetubeguy1954 14:14:32 12/11/06 (36)
- Why didn't you quote the last line of my post? - Pat D 03:14:05 12/12/06 (2)
- Re: Why didn't you quote the last line of my post? - thetubeguy1954 05:47:37 12/12/06 (1)
- Re: Why didn't you quote the last line of my post? - Pat D 05:56:07 12/12/06 (0)
- I agree with you in part. - Analog Scott 17:38:08 12/11/06 (32)
- Re: I agree with you in part. - thetubeguy1954 14:17:35 12/12/06 (30)
- But you did win. - Analog Scott 14:26:58 12/12/06 (29)
- And what is this "audio politics?" - Pat D 16:37:50 12/12/06 (28)
- This Is A PERFECT Example Of "Audio Politics?" - thetubeguy1954 07:19:49 12/13/06 (27)
- Dear me! I thought this was an audio discussion forum devoted to technical matters. - Pat D 07:51:38 12/13/06 (26)
- Another Audio Politican Post (Analog Scott Read This) - thetubeguy1954 12:49:37 12/13/06 (25)
- Short questionnaire - Pat D 13:21:25 12/13/06 (24)
- I have already addressed the double standard - Analog Scott 20:32:43 12/13/06 (23)
- Analog Scott This Is Just More Pat D Audio Politics In Action. - thetubeguy1954 07:20:51 12/14/06 (7)
- Man! You'll do anything to avoid proving your audio claims! - Pat D 12:17:37 12/14/06 (6)
- It's Impossibel Prove Them To An Audio Politican Like You Pat - thetubeguy1954 06:58:10 12/15/06 (5)
- See what I mean? TG54 continues to not prove his claims! (nt) - Pat D 07:42:37 12/15/06 (4)
- See what I mean? Pat D-Cake Continues To Audio Politician !(nt) - thetubeguy1954 08:56:02 12/15/06 (3)
- If only someone could explain what "audio politician" means . . . - Pat D 13:25:09 12/15/06 (2)
- I gave you Bunburyist above - kerr 13:53:30 12/15/06 (1)
- Re: I gave you Bunburyist above - Pat D 15:42:41 12/15/06 (0)
- No, you haven't. You just made up a straw man 'belief' for me.. - Pat D 06:10:35 12/14/06 (14)
- Yes I have. nt - Analog Scott 00:08:07 12/16/06 (13)
- I'm glad to see you finally admit it. - Pat D 11:12:14 12/16/06 (12)
- That I have addressed any relevant questions about your double standards? I admitted that a long time ago - Analog Scott 19:07:05 12/16/06 (11)
- I have no obligation to defend positions I don't hold. (nt) - Pat D 21:01:12 12/16/06 (10)
- You do hold them though. - Analog Scott 12:03:00 12/17/06 (9)
- "can't deal " with what, my son? I certainly can deal with your false statements about me. - Pat D 18:31:54 12/17/06 (8)
- Such as? - Analog Scott 21:42:26 12/17/06 (7)
- You make a lot of false statement about what my opinions are but provide no evidence. See link. - Pat D 20:37:55 12/18/06 (3)
- Failure to support your ridiculous alegations noted a second time.. - Analog Scott 20:43:45 12/18/06 (2)
- Is "alegation" a sort of energy drink? (nt) - Pat D 20:57:19 12/18/06 (1)
- No just a spelling error. something anyone with any smarts would see - Analog Scott 21:32:32 12/18/06 (0)
- Failure to support your false alegations against me is duly noted. nt - Analog Scott 09:37:12 12/18/06 (2)
- I thought "alegation" was a kind of sports drink. (nt) - Pat D 20:42:38 12/18/06 (1)
- That makes sense givn what you think about audio and fair conversations. - Analog Scott 21:34:21 12/18/06 (0)
- So, you guys want to make up opinions and attribute them to me. - Pat D 02:37:38 12/12/06 (0)
- Again, what are so-called objectivist's "assertions on what is and is not audible "? - Pat D 16:46:18 12/10/06 (8)
- Love your scenario - kerr 04:56:15 12/12/06 (5)
- Re: Love your scenario - Pat D 16:48:22 12/12/06 (4)
- Re: Love your scenario - kerr 04:18:07 12/13/06 (3)
- Re: Love your scenario - Pat D 16:14:35 12/13/06 (2)
- Re: Love your scenario - kerr 04:53:15 12/14/06 (1)
- Re: Love your scenario - Pat D 20:58:50 12/14/06 (0)
- I suggest you read your own previous post and look for your own assertions - Analog Scott 19:09:03 12/10/06 (1)
- You'll have to come up with something more specific. - Pat D 05:40:40 12/11/06 (0)
- More claims of omniscience - John Atkinson 17:26:28 12/09/06 (10)
- Re: No claims of omniscience - tomservo 19:06:25 12/09/06 (9)
- Sigh... - John Atkinson 07:54:07 12/10/06 (8)
- Re: Sigh... - Steve Eddy 09:51:19 12/10/06 (0)
- Re: Sigh... - tomservo 12:06:02 12/10/06 (6)
- SH-50 question - Steve Eddy 19:39:29 12/10/06 (5)
- Re: SH-50 question - tomservo 10:06:18 12/11/06 (4)
- Re: SH-50 question - AJinFLA 03:36:47 12/12/06 (2)
- Re: SH-50 question - tomservo 18:43:07 12/12/06 (1)
- Re: SH-50 question - AJinFLA 13:17:56 12/13/06 (0)
- Re: SH-50 question - Steve Eddy 22:14:56 12/11/06 (0)
- The Audio Critic MFSL amp review - Atexanathome 10:26:29 12/10/06 (0)