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OK, But...

Don,

First thanks for the civil reply. I appreciate it and will now reply in the same manner to you. I'll address your points one-by-one, ok?

1) Hopefully without offending you Don, I disagree that "most" of us listen before we buy. After some extremely heated debates here, which became quite nasty and led to my no longer comunicating with those who disparage, belittle, berate, insult etc. I've come to the conclusion that there are as many people who use measurements as there are those who use listening as a primary means of selecting which audio components they'll choose to buy. Even tomservo said: "I desire a perfect servant, a device that does no more or less than what it is told. For an amplifier, that would be what goes in = what comes out but say +20dB. Going in this direction, one might well choose a thing which had a subjectively less real sounding reproduction IF it were more faithfully reproducing the original signal. So Don many people would actually prefer the subjectively less real sounding reproduction, "IF" it measured as more accurately/faithfully passing the original signal. Wherein I would do just the opposite. I'd choose the subjectively more real sounding reproduction, Even "IF" it measured as less accurately/faithfully passing the original signal. Which of these groups constitutes most of us? I don't know.

Don I understand that you do "comparisons" as blind as possible before you make most purchases, but I don't. As I have prefered the cheaper or less attractive looking audio component more than once. I personally do not feel the need to help remove non-audio factors because I don't allow them to influence my decision making. I disagree with your opinion that not doing so will almost surely lead to falling victim to being influenced by non-audio factors. I also disagree that denying the effects of these factors just reveals a lack of experience, or reduces credibility. Why? Because I've disproven the "expectation bias" theory. "IF" not removing non-audio factors will influence my decision making. Then please explain why I wasn't "influenced" in this example:

Many years ago I didn't believe wires influenced how a system sounds. I was so postive I was correct I wouldn't even give others a chance to demonstrate their wires. One day I relented and allowed a dealer to demonstrate some wires for me. So here I am fully biased against hearing any change let alone and improvement. Further I fully expected not to hear any changes. Yet much to my amazement I heard not only a change, but even more so, I heard a more realistic replication of what I know live music sounds like. So why didn't my expectation bias prevent me from hearing any change or improvement? If one believes in "expectation bias" it has to work both ways, i.e. for and against the belief. Yet clearly in this case it didn't work as described, so I have a difficult time lending much credence to this theory. So in my case denying the effects of these factors just reveals the results of my personal experience, and for me is quite credibile.

That said I have no problems with anyone believing differently, as long as they don't state their opinion as a fact. Maybe for you and some others not removing non-audio factors will allow them to influence your decision making. Thus not doing so will almost surely lead to falling victim to being influenced by non-audio factors. But that's not the case for everyone. So whether or not one agrees or disagrees that about the effects of these factors only reveals what their personal experience as taught them, but it in no way effects the credibility with those who have the opposite POV.
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2) Don you're 100% I am the one who made the original post!!! Although why you're bringing that I point up I don't understand. I never denied being the originator of this thread???!!!??? As you either weren't around or were just watching during the series of quite nasty posts that I participated in, you perhaps don't know that often times when I stated MY OPINION, I was later berated for stating opinions as if they were facts. So no Don it's not a given that what I heard and what I concluded the fact of the matter is, is automatically understood to be my opinion. Personally I thought that unless I stated differently, others here would know that it's my opinion. But just the opposite occured, my opinions were taken as me stating facts, because I didn't say they were opinions. So now I make it very clear that I am only stating my opinion. I know and fully expect not everyone is going to agree with me, but like you said, so what? I don't care if others agree or disagree with my opinions. They work for me and might work for others so I make my opinions known. Others can choose to try them or not as they see fit.

It's the same thing when I say that some day science will prove me correct. By that I mean although it's just my opinion, I believe one day science will catch up and prove my opinion correct. But even that statement is only an opinion. Until that day arrives, if it ever does, it remains soley my opinion. Don you and everyone else here needs to understand that EVERYTHING posted here is seen in the light of how the person reading it interpets it. For instance you read my posts and want to criticize me for stating what in your mind is obvious, i.e. that these are my opinions. Yet others here read my posts and want to criticize me for not stating what in their mind isn't obvious, i.e. that these are my opinions. That's precisely why I am constantly saying if you (you meaning anyone) are reading my post and NOT sure what I mean, ask a question BEFORE criticizing me. Sometimes my same exact posts gets criticized twice. From those who think I'm stating the obvious and by those who feel I'm not clarifying what isn't obvious.
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3) Yes these are all my words - not yours. But as I explained above, it's YOU Don who needs to ask questions BEFORE criticizing if you feel clarification of what I mean is needed. Ask me to clarify a point. Afterall Don I cannot tell what is and isn't obvious to you or anyone else. If I was painting you as a trouble maker, in my reply it wasn't due to your needing clarification, but rather due to your provocative comments like:

1) Because if you had a clue you'd know it's the definition of what "measures well" and what is measured that defines how a system is designed/intended to work.

As if I'm clueless.

2) LOL! What do you think this makes you special or different amongst audiophiles? Hardly.

As if I felt I was special.

3) Does your "envy" of those you label as objectivists drive you into these insane missives.

As if I envy Objectivists or make insane missives.

4) Clearly, given the comments you've made in this rant, you want to be them.

As if I rant, only because I disagree with you.

Those are all your words Don - not mine. Personally I view them as attempting to provoke me. Your post could have been made without the resorting to implying I'm clueless, feeling I'm special, envious of others, creating insane missives or ranting. So in all sincerity it really makes you look dishonest to act like you were behaving innocently. However at the same time, I know as we haven't "talked" in awhile and you didn't know what to expect of me, I suppose considering our past "talks" I can somewhat understand your somewhat provocative comments. Hopefully this fully clears everything up for you.

Keep Enjoying the Music Thetubeguy1954

It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows. - Epictetus


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