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How Does One Prove You Can Hear Different Cables

Posted by thetubeguy1954 (A) on May 12, 2006 at 08:15:33

As many if not most of you all probably know Pat D & RGB do not believe that differences in cables can be heard provided they are kept to reasonable lengths and are properly made (I may be wrong but I believe by properly made they mean not reactive i.e. not highly capacitive or inductive but rather mainly resistive).

Usually when Subjectivists, like myself state that I can hear differences they'll respond with a comment that says something like , Don't brag about your hearing or challenge others to come to your house -- do an experiment and collect objective data. So in an effort to appease them I wrote the following post (you can also view it by clicking on the link below....)
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RGB,

Richard I'd like to start by addressing your comment of: "People who do experiments usually report the test data rather than boasts and challenges?"

When I did my experiments as you call it. I originally did it for strictly my and my other "best-friends" amusement/learning. The people I knew personally back then (i.e. not over the internet) believed each other. But I'd be lying if I didn't admit it's also true that occasionally another friend would say something like, "Are you sure? I find that hard to believe." So for these friends I'd/we'd prove our comments.

Most of my experiments were held back in the mid to late 80's. Back when I lived in Connecticut and believed that "audiophile wires" was nothing more than hype meant to part audiophiles from more of their hard earned cash. I was postive in my belief (much like you are today) So I set out to PROVE THE DIFFERENCE IN CABLES COULD NOT BE HEARD!

However, in the end, much to my surprise and dismay the opposite occured. Without a doubt I/we heard differences in the cables. This was PROVED to my, my best-friend and any other audiophile we knew at that time who heard our test, satisfaction. I'm sorry that I didn't think to keep the data for you to look over some 20 years later.

Also I don't believe I'm boasting either! For to boast and it's synonyms: boast, brag, crow, vaunt all mean to speak with pride, often excessive pride. I'm not proud of hearing differences in cables. What's there to be proud of? I am in possestion of no special abilities. In fact, of all the audiophiles I've met who desired to know how I hear differences, I've been able to teach them to hear differences in cables over the course of a day or two. To the best of my recollection only 4 people in 20 years who claimed they wanted to learn couldn't... no matter how hard I tried to teach them!

What my friend Rick and I did was get 8 (if memory serves me correctly about the number) different sets of interconnects. Now I think that to you, this will be an invalid test because we could see the cables in question. But keep in mind that we didn't believe cables made a difference and so we expected to hear no difference. (Which by the way should have kept us from hearing differences no? Afterall according to you Objectivists one of the reasons Subjectivists hear differences is because: 1) they see the component and 2) they EXPECT to hear a difference and in expecting to hear a difference they DO hear a difference! So then following that logic, as we 1) saw the cables and 2) didn't expect to hear differences, we shouldn't have heard a difference, right? But I digress...

This is how our experiment went.

1) Rick and I would always a) use the same song b) use the same volume (we simply shut the system off between different interconnects to assure the volume remained the same. We had no SPL meters and this seemed a reasoanble approach. Especially considering we expected to hear no differences.)

2) We labled the interconnects 1-8.

3) At no time during the process were we allowed to say if we did or didn't hear any differences.

4) We'd insert the interconnect, turn on the system, play the song, and while the song played we'd sit at opposite sides of a couch. We did this to be sure we didn't see what the other wrote--not that this mattered because Rick is almost blind after a 2 foot distance. Then we'd simultaneously wrote down what we heard.

5) Steps 1-4 were repeated for all 8 interconnects.

6) After all the interconnects were listened to and we were done writing we compared notes.

Not only did we hear differences but we were shocked to discover many more times than not we commented on EXACTLY SAME THINGS! Also much to our amazement we never conflicted completely i.e. one said the bass got better and the other said the bass got worse. Instead it turned out that most likely that in addition to both agreeing the bass was better or worse, one of us might have made an additional comment like the soundstage got bigger/smaller, the other didn't notice or hear.

RGB, I don't understand people like you who claim "real audiophiles" need to hear differences! I have NO vested interest in hearing differences in cables, why would I? I've been disabled for years and have been living for 12 years on Social Security. Do you have any idea how little they pay? How long I have to save and how hard it is for me to buy a new component? Also remember I didn't believe and didn't want to hear differences in cables.

Fact is, I wished that $25 Rat Shack interconnects sounded as good as my Z-Squared Au/Au's do, I wished that a $500 Receiver sounded as good as my Mastersound does--it would save me a lot of $$$$$ Unfortunately, because I have to spend the money to buy them and fortunately, because they take my system sound one step closer to the ideal we all seek, cables make an audible difference that's usually easily heard.

Lastly I'd like to address this statement you (RGB) made "...and insults such as: "YOU WON'T ACCEPT MY WORD" don't communicate your message well." RGB I don't know why the truth insults you. You obviously don't take me at my word. So how is my stating the truth insulting? If anyone should be insulted it's me, but I'm not insulted.

In any event I'll attempt to get Roger Russell over my house (if I can) to try some interconnect switching. If he comes I'll tell you the results. But if you're not willing to accept the tests above I doubt you'll accept this new one either.
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I'm still waiting to hear back from RGB (Richard BassNut Greene) for his comments about the above post. Pat D's has responded already. His response was simply: "I can't see that you proved that you could tell the difference between cables. It's not done by writing down your impressions and then looking them over afterwards."

I believe this shows that Pat D doesn't want to admit or believe cables can sound different even when it's been proven that my friend and I heard differences! I'll grant that this was a sighted test, but as I stated previously in this post Objectivists always rebuke Subjectivists claims of hearing differences by stating this: The reason Subjectivists hear differences is because: 1) they see the component and 2) they EXPECT to hear a difference and this in expecting to hear a difference they DO hear a difference! So it's only logical that "IF" Objectivists really believe that statement to be true and aren't just saying it as a defense of their beliefs, then as we apply that logic to the experiments my friend and I did we see: 1) we saw the cables and 2) we didn't expect to hear differences, thus in expecting not to hear a difference we shouldn't have heard a difference, right?

Still even using that logic, even though my friend and I went into this experiment believing "Audiophile Cables" were a scam, even though we didn't expect to hear differences, even though we both collected our data secretly, not saying anything during these tests, etc. Because our tests proved to my, my friends and anyone else at that time that cared to participate satisfaction, that differences could not only be heard, and not only that the differences we heard were the same differences, according to Pat D, (he) can't see that (I) proved that (I) could tell the difference between cables.

Pat D then further commented that "It's not done by writing down your impressions and then looking them over afterwards." I guess listening, collecting the data, writing it down and then comparing isn't valid in Pat's eyes?

I'm beginning to believe that you could have Pat D or RGB in a room, PROVE in DBT you can hear differences in cables and they'd say something like this test is flawed. Although I don't know how, it's definitely flawed because: "After three decades of blind testing, the results have consistently failed to support the "all components sound different" belief. Not one participant has even come close to being a "golden ear." So these tests must be flawed.

Unlike myself who at one time believed all cables sounded the same and then setup and experiment to prove that very thing, I've accepted the results (even though they went against my beliefs at that time.) But these two don't want to accept the results or know the truth. They'd rather continue to parrot David Carlstrom's comments from the ABX website. Because this falls in line with their firmly held, yet quite mistaken beliefs.

I've offered to demonstrate to both them I can hear differences in my home in person (The reason I've offered to do this in my home is a) no matter what I say they won't believe me. (at least they haven't called me a liar!) and b) at least in person they'd see me do what I can claim I can do and not have to take anyone else's word for it. (although I'm sure they'd find a way to invalidate any conclusions that didn't agree with their beliefs)

So where does this all end? They both choose not to come and say I should setup my own test (which I've already done, but they don't accept) or as Pat D says I should get my friend Roger Russell over (which I'll try to do) Still I wonder if they won't accept anything I've said and done previously as valid, why should I believe they'll accept the outcome of this experiment?

Thetubeguy1954

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