In Reply to: Re: When the build quality jibes with the sound quality posted by racerguy on September 20, 2006 at 16:43:27:
This whole thread is a perfect example of how shallow we are - we prefer to judge a transport's quality by the size, weight and amount of metal rather than actual objective performance data. Kind of reminds me of the joke about the difference between a cheap CD player and an expensive CD player is that the expensive one has a 20kg weight added to it's chassis.John Atkinson provides a valuable service by actually providing jitter measurements in Stereophile reviews (measured in picoseconds peak-to-peak based on a Dunn J-test signal analysed by the Miller device).
Just for fun, I spent about 15 minutes summarizing the results for recent hi-rez players and the figures are very sobering (and disappointing):
(08/06) Classe CDP-202 319ps
(04/06) dCS P8i 198ps
(09/05) Bel Canto PL-1A 232ps
(07/05) Ayre C-5xe 289ps
(06/05) Linn Unidisk SC 257ps
(01/05) dCS Verdi LaScala 291ps
(12/03) Krell SACD Standard 197ps
(12/03) Linn Unidisk 1.1 179ps
(12/03) Sony XA-9000ES 176ps
(08/03) Esoteric DV-50 495ps (613ps on SACD)
(05/03) Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista 177.4ps
(01/02) Sony XA-777ES 171psIt seems that most hi-rez players have jitter well above 200ps, with the number below 200ps limited to a handful. Interesting, the two Sony players (based on the same transport) have the lowest jitter out of the pack, proving that Sony DOES know how to design low jitter transports (even though their lasers fail regularly). I think the fact that the Sony players only play CDs and SACDs (and are not modified DVD transports) are quite illuminating, and suggest that a universal transport does indeed compromise jitter performance. The Esoteric DV-50 would stand out as being a particularly poor performer, despite the R&D invested by TEAC.
In comparison, a very well regarded player (Linn Sondek CD12) measures 136.6ps. This figure is astounding given that a PLL cicuit imposes a jitter floor of around 100-150ps.
When you consider that recent analysis suggests that jitter needs to be below 20ps to be truly inaudible, the above figures suggest that ALL curent hi-rez players are at least an order of magnitude above ideal.
The upcoming Slim Devices Transporter claims jitter at the DAC < 20ps. If this claim can be substantiated, then it should be a very interesting device to listen to.
One final comment: both John Atkinson (in Stereophile) and Ted Smith (on this forum) have in the past hypothesised that jitter may be euphonic. In particular, John has suggested that low frequency jitter may cause a perceived increased in soundstage. If so, then maybe some designersof the above players are perhaps subconsciously using jitter for euphonic reasons.
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Follow Ups
- That is truly sad ... - Christine Tham 18:15:03 09/20/06 (88)
- OMG Christine!!! - Alex Peychev 01:39:37 09/21/06 (26)
- There is no "bit clock" coming out of the VRDS Neo - Charles Hansen 07:12:57 09/21/06 (21)
- Re: There is no "bit clock" coming out of the VRDS Neo - Alex Peychev 09:50:19 09/21/06 (20)
- Re: There is no "bit clock" coming out of the VRDS Neo - Charles Hansen 10:02:46 09/21/06 (14)
- Re: There is no "bit clock" coming out of the VRDS Neo - Alex Peychev 10:25:06 09/21/06 (13)
- Re: There is no "bit clock" coming out of the VRDS Neo - Charles Hansen 10:56:08 09/21/06 (12)
- Re: There is no "bit clock" coming out of the VRDS Neo - Alex Peychev 11:49:57 09/21/06 (11)
- Alex, two questions... - Allen Wright 14:45:16 09/21/06 (3)
- Re: Alex, two questions... - Alex Peychev 15:46:18 09/21/06 (2)
- Disagree - Charles Hansen 16:29:42 09/21/06 (1)
- Re: Disagree - Alex Peychev 16:41:10 09/21/06 (0)
- Re: There is no "bit clock" coming out of the VRDS Neo - Charles Hansen 12:47:49 09/21/06 (6)
- Re: There is no "bit clock" coming out of the VRDS Neo - Alex Peychev 15:23:35 09/21/06 (1)
- Re: There is no "bit clock" coming out of the VRDS Neo - Charles Hansen 16:26:18 09/21/06 (0)
- Re: clock path to the chips - Retsel 14:47:35 09/21/06 (3)
- Re: clock path to the chips - Alex Peychev 16:35:14 09/21/06 (2)
- Re: Difference that the transport makes - Retsel 11:05:57 09/22/06 (0)
- Re: clock path to the chips - Charles Hansen 19:32:22 09/21/06 (0)
- I don't know what Stereophile is doing with their measurement scheme - Sordidman 10:00:48 09/21/06 (4)
- Exactly - Charles Hansen 10:46:18 09/21/06 (2)
- Well yes and no...... - Alex Peychev 11:23:05 09/21/06 (1)
- Re: Well yes and no...... - Charles Hansen 12:08:06 09/21/06 (0)
- That is correct...... - Alex Peychev 10:12:12 09/21/06 (0)
- Re: OMG Christine!!! - racerguy 05:19:38 09/21/06 (3)
- Re: OMG Christine!!! - Alex Peychev 10:05:17 09/21/06 (2)
- Re: OMG Christine!!! - racerguy 16:45:15 09/21/06 (1)
- Re: OMG Christine!!! - Alex Peychev 18:33:11 09/21/06 (0)
- You forgot the SCD-1 at 146.8 ps(1999)nt - Guss2 18:37:12 09/20/06 (1)
- Kick ass baby.... - Chris Garrett 02:45:23 09/21/06 (0)
- A little knowledge is a dangerous thing - Charles Hansen 18:32:35 09/20/06 (56)
- A plague on both your houses - Pacman 10:56:08 09/21/06 (5)
- It's OK that the original subject has been changed, but... - Sordidman 12:40:57 09/21/06 (4)
- Your correct but... - Pacman 14:26:08 09/21/06 (3)
- Re: Your correct but... - Christine Tham 02:44:12 09/22/06 (2)
- Oh, really? - Charles Hansen 06:35:27 09/22/06 (1)
- See my other reply - Christine Tham 15:37:26 09/22/06 (0)
- Completely agree - Christine Tham 18:44:04 09/20/06 (49)
- Your lack of reading comprehension is truly astounding - Charles Hansen 19:09:37 09/20/06 (48)
- See racerguy's post - Christine Tham 20:23:52 09/20/06 (35)
- And now it's time for me to pick on YOU - racerguy 20:46:55 09/20/06 (28)
- Re: And now it's time for me to pick on YOU - Christine Tham 21:05:11 09/20/06 (27)
- Thanks, but you still didn't address the issue - racerguy 05:34:59 09/21/06 (1)
- Re: Thanks, but you still didn't address the issue - Christine Tham 22:48:39 09/21/06 (0)
- Once again you are showing your lack of knowledge - Charles Hansen 21:29:53 09/20/06 (24)
- Re: Once again you are showing your lack of knowledge - Christine Tham 21:53:30 09/20/06 (23)
- Don't be coy, give us an example - Charles Hansen 22:01:00 09/20/06 (22)
- Well, I would ... - Christine Tham 22:34:42 09/20/06 (21)
- Oh, right... - Charles Hansen 22:42:59 09/20/06 (20)
- "People buy from people they like." - String Section 23:13:41 09/20/06 (4)
- Re: "People buy from people they like." - junvel 00:57:31 09/24/06 (0)
- Re: "People buy from people they like." - graemme 14:25:15 09/21/06 (0)
- Re: "People buy from people they like." - Charles Hansen 23:36:08 09/20/06 (1)
- Re: "People buy from people they like." - sentinel90125 07:34:43 09/22/06 (0)
- What audience? - Christine Tham 23:00:08 09/20/06 (14)
- Were all reading.. - SnaggS 21:38:03 09/21/06 (1)
- Send me private email (nt) - Christine Tham 22:49:40 09/21/06 (0)
- Re: What audience? - The Sound Guy 06:24:56 09/21/06 (9)
- I hope you will understand - Christine Tham 02:41:20 09/22/06 (8)
- OK - The_Sound_Guy 00:07:49 09/28/06 (0)
- Oh, really? - Charles Hansen 06:34:16 09/22/06 (6)
- Re: Oh, really? - Christine Tham 15:36:49 09/22/06 (5)
- Just a little bit more background ... - Christine Tham 16:26:51 09/22/06 (0)
- This is why it is hard to take you seriously - Charles Hansen 16:18:48 09/22/06 (3)
- Re: This is why it is hard to take you seriously - Christine Tham 16:41:17 09/22/06 (2)
- Just one final hint ... - Christine Tham 17:03:01 09/22/06 (1)
- Re: Just one final hint ... - Lin Minh 08:39:10 09/24/06 (0)
- Re: What audience? - Charles Hansen 23:17:42 09/20/06 (1)
- Re: What audience? - Christine Tham 00:33:11 09/21/06 (0)
- Well, let's see here... - Charles Hansen 20:43:50 09/20/06 (5)
- Re: Well, let's see here... - Christine Tham 22:09:50 09/20/06 (4)
- Oh, OK, I believe you now - Charles Hansen 22:38:29 09/20/06 (3)
- And your point is? - Christine Tham 22:57:42 09/20/06 (2)
- Re: And your point is? - Charles Hansen 23:09:05 09/20/06 (1)
- Wow ... - Christine Tham 00:30:58 09/21/06 (0)
- Yours isn't so great either - racerguy 19:28:11 09/20/06 (11)
- Thanks - saved me from typing (nt) - Christine Tham 20:12:53 09/20/06 (0)
- Uhhh... - Charles Hansen 19:55:38 09/20/06 (9)
- Re: Uhhh... - Christine Tham 20:34:10 09/20/06 (3)
- Re: Uhhh... - Charles Hansen 20:57:09 09/20/06 (2)
- Re: Uhhh... - Christine Tham 22:18:51 09/20/06 (1)
- As Woody Allen would say... - Charles Hansen 22:32:48 09/20/06 (0)
- Still no good - racerguy 20:32:55 09/20/06 (4)
- Re: Still no good - Charles Hansen 20:53:31 09/20/06 (3)
- Whatever you say, Charles - racerguy 05:25:56 09/21/06 (2)
- Re: Whatever you say, Charles - Charles Hansen 07:24:03 09/21/06 (1)
- Re: Whatever you say, Charles - racerguy 07:50:06 09/21/06 (0)
- Re: That is truly sad ... - racerguy 18:32:13 09/20/06 (1)
- Re: That is truly sad ... - Christine Tham 18:38:57 09/20/06 (1)