And why almost NO professional observational listeners - equipment reviewers - do. (nt) - mkuller

Follow Ups Full Thread

Topic - Since DBTs are so great, why then do precious few audio manufacturers ever mention them? - E-Stat 11:07:50 06/06/06 (165)

Because the goober market is insignificant - Don T 10:37:19 06/11/06 (0)

Because with today's technology, they are pointless - Soundmind 04:39:26 06/11/06 (0)

A straight answer: DBT's are strong evidence not all components sound different & most manufacturers don't like that - Richard BassNut Greene 10:14:01 06/09/06 (28)

Just curious-if you made an amp that sounded exactly like a Krell or Bryston at 1/5 price why wouldn't you advertise it? - Soundmind 17:11:39 06/11/06 (1)

People at the lower price point wouldn't know Krell / Bryston & people interested in Krell / Bryston wouldn't believe it - Richard BassNut Greene 16:38:46 06/15/06 (0)

Why shouldn't there be differences? - unclestu52 14:44:07 06/10/06 (8)

Yes, but can humans actually hear every difference? - Caymus 15:16:34 06/11/06 (1)

Could you please - unclestu52 20:13:18 06/11/06 (0)

People willing to experiment find they have a much harder time hearing differences than expected - Richard BassNut Greene 13:24:39 06/11/06 (5)

Actually I do a lot of experimentation. - unclestu52 20:54:11 06/11/06 (4)

Are you forgetting the "Wanting to Hear Differences Bias"? - Richard BassNut Greene 10:15:44 06/13/06 (3)

What if you didn't want to hear a difference? - unclestu52 13:44:22 06/13/06 (2)

I've never met anyone who did not want to hear a difference - Richard BassNut Greene 09:23:38 06/14/06 (1)

Your position has been duly noted (NT) - unclestu52 10:46:16 06/14/06 (0)

Re: A straight answer: DBT's are strong evidence not all components sound different & most manufacturers don't like th - Tom Dawson 13:03:22 06/09/06 (16)

Any amps with tubes will have more distortion and will distort the frequency response - Richard BassNut Greene 13:52:17 06/09/06 (15)

You can refute Richard's universal statement with a single counterexample, - Pat D 10:19:59 06/10/06 (1)

Posted in the wrong place. - Pat D 14:43:35 06/10/06 (0)

Re: Any amps with tubes will have more distortion and will distort the frequency response - Soundmind 20:20:46 06/09/06 (3)

Re: Any amps with tubes will have more distortion and will distort the frequency response - Tom Dawson 20:42:25 06/09/06 (2)

Re: Any amps with tubes will have more distortion and will distort the frequency response - Soundmind 04:05:19 06/10/06 (1)

Re: Any amps with tubes will have more distortion and will distort the frequency response - Tom Dawson 19:45:51 06/11/06 (0)

" Any amps with tubes..." - sounds like blatant anti-thermionic bias to me.... - Tom Dawson 15:05:58 06/09/06 (8)

I've seen a lot of reviews of tube amps with a high output impedance. - Pat D 18:48:50 06/09/06 (7)

OTL = output transformerless (nt) - andy_c 19:28:25 06/09/06 (1)

Thanks for the information. (nt) - Pat D 06:59:33 06/16/06 (0)

Re: I've seen a lot of reviews of tube amps with a high output impedance. - Tom Dawson 19:23:08 06/09/06 (4)

Re: I've seen a lot of reviews of tube amps with a high output impedance. - theaudiohobby 10:59:43 06/11/06 (2)

Re: I've seen a lot of reviews of tube amps with a high output impedance. - Tom Dawson 19:47:30 06/12/06 (0)

Explanation of falling distortion with reduced output - Soundmind 04:48:11 06/12/06 (0)

You can refute Richard's universal statement with a single counterexample, - Pat D 14:42:24 06/10/06 (0)

An informed customer ... can bankrupt a company - Richard BassNut Greene 10:00:30 06/09/06 (3)

Perhaps - E-Stat 10:14:54 06/09/06 (2)

Or stated more plainly - E-Stat 11:23:05 06/09/06 (1)

There's always someone with a cheaper product - Richard BassNut Greene 13:55:56 06/09/06 (0)

Like people want pocket protector wielding coke bottle lensed geeks telling them what audio equipment to buy. - Tom Dawson 19:18:57 06/07/06 (1)

Re: Like people want pocket protector wielding coke bottle lensed geeks telling them what audio equipment to buy. - morricab 01:44:36 06/08/06 (0)

DBT's can be useful, but who are the test subjects? - unclestu52 14:55:33 06/07/06 (11)

See this article for an example of what you say hasn't been mentioned - andy_c 15:58:41 06/07/06 (10)

The spirit of Julian Hirsch lives on! - E-Stat 10:24:47 06/09/06 (3)

Notice of STH violation - andy_c 17:09:45 06/09/06 (2)

Re: Oh so funny - cheers -nt - theaudiohobby 16:29:01 06/10/06 (0)

LMAO. nt - Dan Banquer 11:09:01 06/10/06 (0)

So are we to - unclestu52 18:07:57 06/07/06 (2)

Some more info - andy_c 18:37:04 06/07/06 (1)

Thank you for the offer - unclestu52 21:29:51 06/07/06 (0)

Re: See this article for an example of what you say hasn't been mentioned - Dan Banquer 17:09:11 06/07/06 (2)

Nice try, Dan... - mkuller 11:01:30 06/09/06 (0)

Was this post intended as a character attack on m. kuller? - Richard BassNut Greene 09:35:59 06/09/06 (0)

Do you believe those Quantum-bots, Rocks and Clocks are real? - Caymus 14:15:39 06/07/06 (2)

Real profits, real placebo effect, DBT validation - well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad. nt - Tom Dawson 19:01:41 06/07/06 (0)

I have zero exposure to those things - E-Stat 17:58:25 06/07/06 (0)

A reflection of the regard in which DBTs are actually held by most? nt - clarkjohnsen 09:02:43 06/07/06 (16)

Yup, certainly by most who sell audiophile snake-oil (nt) - Caymus 13:47:04 06/07/06 (0)

If anyone cares, here's the Asylum's stated position on DBTs - Soundmind 13:31:55 06/07/06 (0)

And why almost NO professional observational listeners - equipment reviewers - do. (nt) - mkuller 13:07:17 06/07/06 (5)

Agreed, and neither do psychics, channelers and all charlatans - Caymus 13:55:56 06/07/06 (4)

So you put manufacturers and equipment designers who don't use them in the same category? (nt) - mkuller 15:12:34 06/07/06 (3)

No, just those unproven equipment reviewersâ€¦ - Caymus 16:22:46 06/07/06 (2)

No one is claiming equipment reviewers have "incredible perception" but you and Bass Nutâ€¦(nt) - mkuller 10:33:56 06/09/06 (1)

But they do claim exceptional hearing indirectly when they claim to hear ICs, pebbles, interconnects, etc. - Pat D 08:56:00 06/19/06 (0)

A reflection of what magazines / mfrâ€™s â€œteachâ€ the target market - tomservo 11:43:59 06/07/06 (6)

So the readerships are all chumps, right? Uninformed riffraff? - clarkjohnsen 11:59:29 06/07/06 (5)

No. Just you - Richard BassNut Greene 09:38:56 06/09/06 (0)

Has your magazine EVER reviewed one of its advertiser's products it didn't like? nt - Soundmind 13:07:57 06/07/06 (0)

Not entirely. - tomservo 12:59:55 06/07/06 (1)

Yesterday I replied at length, and agreeably, but it got lost by AA... - clarkjohnsen 07:25:05 06/09/06 (0)

Re: So the readerships are all chumps, right? Uninformed riffraff? - Dan Banquer 12:08:33 06/07/06 (0)

Yep. Oh, say, most people believe in astrology, too... - real_jj 10:28:22 06/07/06 (0)

Re: Since DBTs are so great, why then do precious few audio manufacturers ever mention them? - andy19191 06:23:14 06/07/06 (22)

What about Wireworld? - Atexanathome 13:54:10 06/09/06 (0)

Hmmm - E-Stat 07:11:33 06/07/06 (20)

Re: Hmmm - andy19191 08:38:14 06/07/06 (19)

Part Deux - E-Stat 09:49:09 06/07/06 (18)

Re: Part Deux - andy19191 10:19:36 06/07/06 (17)

Interesting - E-Stat 11:12:03 06/07/06 (16)

Re: Interesting - andy19191 12:36:30 06/07/06 (3)

Don't need help - E-Stat 18:10:36 06/07/06 (2)

Re: Don't need help - andy19191 04:03:42 06/09/06 (1)

I share Wikpedia's concept of trolling - E-Stat 05:13:41 06/09/06 (0)

He didn't just call you an a$$hole. He told the moderator you be booted out. nt - clarkjohnsen 12:02:07 06/07/06 (11)

Aw, he's been using that mantra for some time now - E-Stat 18:34:36 06/07/06 (10)

Hey, if they boot you off this site, you could boot them off AR. I'll bet they're quaking in their boots :) nt - Soundmind 03:41:33 06/09/06 (9)

Who's "them" and "they"? - E-Stat 06:45:04 06/09/06 (8)

Perhaps a point of clarification - Ted Smith 11:18:05 06/09/06 (2)

Again, my hat's off to you - E-Stat 12:05:22 06/09/06 (1)

Thanks, it's a thin line. [nt] - Ted Smith 13:45:43 06/09/06 (0)

Fact; In life, there are the bootERS and the bootEES. Here you're a potential bootEE. At AR your'e a.....???? nt - Soundmind 08:45:55 06/09/06 (4)

You speak from experience as a "bootEE" (nt) - E-Stat 10:27:17 06/09/06 (3)

No, when the rules changed turning into a playpen for beginners, I was the first to quit (nt) - Soundmind 12:16:17 06/09/06 (2)

I was referring to here - E-Stat 12:52:27 06/09/06 (1)

Re: I was referring to here - Soundmind 13:53:49 06/09/06 (0)

Smaller companys simply can't afford the facilities - Robert Hamel 04:53:56 06/07/06 (6)

Understood - E-Stat 05:17:28 06/07/06 (5)

And, larger companies do... - real_jj 10:20:29 06/07/06 (4)

Harman was one of the four companies Pat already mentioned - E-Stat 10:26:52 06/07/06 (3)

WeCo is gone. - real_jj 10:29:26 06/07/06 (2)

You are mistaken - E-Stat 10:47:00 06/07/06 (1)

No, they sold the name... - real_jj 11:38:41 06/07/06 (0)

Because If The Audio Manufacturers Did Mention DBTs..... - Todd Krieger 01:33:37 06/07/06 (7)

"I still have to listen to find out." You unreasonable wretch! Why don't you listen to what we tell you? nt - clarkjohnsen 08:52:50 06/07/06 (6)

Your most convincing arguement ever. Why don't you just go over to his house and beat it into him until he submits? nt - Soundmind 09:17:56 06/07/06 (5)

Look up the word "facetious" (nt) - E-Stat 09:52:47 06/07/06 (4)

Maybe he's having polarity problems today. Prozac and anger management training might help him - Soundmind 09:57:38 06/07/06 (3)

I rather think he had a broad grin on his face as he penned that response (nt) - E-Stat 10:04:01 06/07/06 (2)

Yes, a strange grin and his eyes bugged out wide? Maybe it's "MADNESS!" ;-) nt - Soundmind 13:20:33 06/07/06 (0)

Yes, but sometimes it's hard to tell ... - real_jj 10:26:18 06/07/06 (0)

Re: Since DBTs are so great, why then do precious few audio manufacturers ever mention them? - mls-stl 16:46:55 06/06/06 (3)

Wouldnâ€™t DBTs show less bias and higher standards? - Caymus 17:18:04 06/06/06 (2)

Re: Wouldnâ€™t DBTs show less bias and higher standards? - mls-stl 18:30:24 06/06/06 (1)

"Wine and audio? Nope, two completely different beasts." Except insofar as... - clarkjohnsen 08:12:25 06/08/06 (0)

More than just a couple speaker manufactuers . . . - Pat D 16:41:15 06/06/06 (2)

Of the six you mentioned, two don't mention DBTs on their websites - E-Stat 20:04:37 06/06/06 (1)

Re: Of the six you mentioned, two don't mention DBTs on their websites - Pat D 09:04:52 06/08/06 (0)

Why do you think, E-Stat? - real_jj 12:32:36 06/06/06 (33)

I defer to your expertise - E-Stat 14:49:54 06/06/06 (32)

What a freaking cop out! - Dan Banquer 17:16:31 06/06/06 (4)

Funny, that's what I thought of his response - E-Stat 05:26:24 06/07/06 (3)

You are incapable or rational thought - Dan Banquer 05:34:52 06/07/06 (2)

Just to think you wished me a good day yesterday - E-Stat 05:46:47 06/07/06 (1)

Obviously, politeness is lost on you. - Dan Banquer 05:52:00 06/07/06 (0)

Really... - real_jj 15:26:49 06/06/06 (26)

Do you believe MPEG based lossy encoding - E-Stat 19:53:27 06/06/06 (25)

What a curiously poorly qualified statement... - real_jj 19:55:50 06/06/06 (24)

You mean the MPEG-2 AAC standard used with XM radio? (nt) - E-Stat 20:14:19 06/06/06 (23)

Do you have even a trivial concept of "bit rate?? - real_jj 20:17:35 06/06/06 (22)

Certainly - E-Stat 20:20:31 06/06/06 (21)

Ever experimented with lossy formats??? - Robert Hamel 21:35:08 06/06/06 (0)

Once more, please clarify your specific question - real_jj 20:39:55 06/06/06 (19)

OK - E-Stat 05:21:44 06/07/06 (18)

Yes. - real_jj 10:11:23 06/07/06 (17)

Thank you - E-Stat 10:40:36 06/07/06 (16)

Bad encoder? - mkuller 13:18:29 06/07/06 (10)

Different animals - E-Stat 18:06:24 06/07/06 (8)

AAC is a newer standard... - real_jj 22:18:41 06/07/06 (7)

AAC @ 128kb/sec... - mkuller 10:38:16 06/09/06 (6)

Tell me about it. - real_jj 10:54:37 06/09/06 (5)

Oh, and ... - real_jj 10:56:46 06/09/06 (4)

If I can read between the lines.... - mkuller 14:13:55 06/09/06 (3)

Well, I am not allowed to comment on that particular issue. - real_jj 16:32:23 06/09/06 (2)

Which encoder program do you use for your iPod? (nt) - mkuller 11:43:05 06/11/06 (1)

Don't own one. (really!) - real_jj 20:46:48 06/11/06 (0)

Anyone (or just about anyone) can MAKE an encoder... - real_jj 14:13:12 06/07/06 (0)

There we agree... - real_jj 11:43:04 06/07/06 (4)

Interesting read - highly recommended - E-Stat 18:53:55 06/07/06 (3)

Well you notice... - real_jj 14:24:55 06/08/06 (2)

You did rather emphasize that point - E-Stat 20:18:49 06/08/06 (1)

Your EQ is probably ok, since you're correcting TO flat, as opposed to away from it... - real_jj 20:34:58 06/08/06 (0)

I think Shel Silverstein put it best when he said... - andy_c 11:47:07 06/06/06 (0)

Re: Since DBTs are so great, why then do precious few audio manufacturers ever mention them? - tomservo 11:37:47 06/06/06 (15)

Telling the truth won't win you many friends around this place - Soundmind 19:25:18 06/06/06 (0)

Re: Since DBTs are so great, why then do precious few audio manufacturers ever mention them? - Dan Banquer 11:50:59 06/06/06 (10)

Do you actually *know* anyone - E-Stat 11:53:53 06/06/06 (9)

Re: Do you actually *know* anyone - Dan Banquer 11:59:05 06/06/06 (8)

Sorry to hear that - E-Stat 12:10:16 06/06/06 (7)

They got there whole this time, I hope? - real_jj 12:25:00 06/06/06 (2)

Yes, thank you! - E-Stat 12:42:48 06/06/06 (1)

Heh... - real_jj 13:15:38 06/06/06 (0)

Wow! You've been in Hibernation for more than 30 years! nt - Dan Banquer 12:12:27 06/06/06 (3)

Georgia, not Hibernation (nt) - E-Stat 14:12:01 06/06/06 (2)

Hiber(nia) Nation? - real_jj 16:13:57 06/06/06 (1)

Nah - E-Stat 06:20:49 06/07/06 (0)

Exactly - E-Stat 11:48:41 06/06/06 (2)

Re: Exactly - tomservo 12:43:58 06/06/06 (1)

You have again stated my point - E-Stat 20:28:16 06/06/06 (0)

Follow Ups

And why almost NO professional observational listeners - equipment reviewers - do. (nt) - mkuller 13:07:17 06/07/06 (5)

Agreed, and neither do psychics, channelers and all charlatans - Caymus 13:55:56 06/07/06 (4)

So you put manufacturers and equipment designers who don't use them in the same category? (nt) - mkuller 15:12:34 06/07/06 (3)

No, just those unproven equipment reviewersâ€¦ - Caymus 16:22:46 06/07/06 (2)

No one is claiming equipment reviewers have "incredible perception" but you and Bass Nutâ€¦(nt) - mkuller 10:33:56 06/09/06 (1)

But they do claim exceptional hearing indirectly when they claim to hear ICs, pebbles, interconnects, etc. - Pat D 08:56:00 06/19/06 (0)