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Propeller Head Plaza Technical and scientific discussion of amps, cables and other topics. |
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Propeller Head Plaza Technical and scientific discussion of amps, cables and other topics. |
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In Reply to: Huh! But there are so many things to "prove". Look at Norm and Quint's explorations... posted by clarkjohnsen on December 27, 2005 at 13:59:19:
>Are they supposed to go through rigorous DBTs (and get them peer-reviewed -- always our adversaries' weasely wiggle-room) each and every time they find an improvement (or, not)?<Nope, and I don't think anyone is saying they should. Even SEJ has stated that he personally doesn't use DBT's. Where it gets dicey is that even though many (if not most) of the DBT'ers don't indulge in such tests, they require it of anyone making a claim of sonic differences. But I'm comfortable replying that "I have not DBT'd this component/tweak and you are free to discount everything I say about it as a result". Hell, I've never tried to convince anyone of any benefits in particular components anyway but I do always suggest someone try it for themselves.
But you bring up a good point about peer review. Setting up a proper DBT isn't terribly easy, even WITHOUT the peer review. Some subjectivist is going to need a lot of time on his hands to go through the rigors of DBT testing his beliefs.
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Follow Ups Full ThreadTopic - "It still remains that sighted listening is less reliable than controlled DBTs." That's an assertion; or is there proof? - clarkjohnsen 09:10:14 12/21/05 (162)
- Isn’t it ironic that it’s usually hardcore subjectivists denying DBTs? - Caymus 14:29:02 12/24/05 (22)
- I'll try explaining it to you - kerr 17:58:26 12/24/05 (20)
- No difference - “sighted†listening has the exactly the SAME problems you mention - Caymus 19:29:52 12/24/05 (19)
- True but I'm not claiming sighted listening to be superior overall - kerr 14:57:23 12/25/05 (18)
- Out of curiousity... - Silver Eared John 10:25:35 01/03/06 (0)
- Ah! So you take 'bias' as a personal matter, subject to your learning and volition. - Pat D 11:00:50 12/26/05 (16)
- Re: Ah! So you take 'bias' as a personal matter, subject to your learning and volition. - kerr 13:22:30 12/26/05 (15)
- Re: Ah! So you take 'bias' as a personal matter, subject to your learning and volition. - Pat D 20:53:53 12/26/05 (14)
- Re: Ah! So you take 'bias' as a personal matter, subject to your learning and volition. - kerr 06:31:54 12/27/05 (13)
- So the donkey would starve? (nt) - Pat D 09:56:56 12/27/05 (12)
- No, he simply did the donkey version of eeny, meeny, miney mo! - kerr 10:26:06 12/27/05 (11)
- You'll find a reason to favor one over the other - Caymus 12:44:37 12/27/05 (10)
- Agreed - kerr 14:13:48 12/27/05 (9)
- Busting the donkey scenario. - clarkjohnsen 15:09:03 12/27/05 (8)
- Re: Busting the donkey scenario. - David Aiken 14:58:06 12/28/05 (1)
- Trust you kept track of which was which... nt - clarkjohnsen 17:22:59 12/28/05 (0)
- Heh, heh - kerr 17:09:00 12/27/05 (5)
- And there you have it, in the words of the master... nt - clarkjohnsen 08:08:03 12/28/05 (0)
- You still had to choose one before another. - Pat D 21:56:44 12/27/05 (3)
- Your story has a point - kerr 04:33:43 12/28/05 (2)
- Re: Your story has a point - gymwear5@hotmail.com 08:09:37 12/30/05 (1)
- If that's the point of the donkey story... - kerr 09:49:33 12/30/05 (0)
- Y'all noticed? - Silver Eared John 17:26:41 12/24/05 (0)
- Moderators at the Christmas sherry already? DBTs? "BAH HUMBUG! [nt]" - chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com 12:05:00 12/22/05 (1)
- 'Fraid it's more than sherry. They're passed out! No response at all. Got 'em on life support... - clarkjohnsen 10:37:11 12/23/05 (0)
- Yoo-Hoo!, Bored, obvious pot stiring rabble rouser CJ begging to a trip to you know where. nt - bjh 09:13:25 12/22/05 (0)
- Meanwhile, over in Music (!) -- Not a DBT-free zone -- - clarkjohnsen 09:07:51 12/22/05 (0)
- Original kerr post, now deleted: "Maybe." - clarkjohnsen 08:56:33 12/22/05 (76)
- Yet more big lie.... - Silver Eared John 16:51:21 12/22/05 (75)
- Why so much used equipment out there? - Dave Pogue 05:57:41 12/24/05 (1)
- Opposite of slick = grunged. nt - clifff 13:26:25 12/26/05 (0)
- How come so many used cars; the lack of DBTs? - Norm 14:26:12 12/23/05 (7)
- And another evasion by Norm the master of unreality... - Silver Eared John 14:30:15 12/23/05 (6)
- Man, can you understand anything, such as logic? And stop pretending to be a Southerner. nt . - Norm 20:36:15 12/23/05 (5)
- I an't no Southerner, son... - Silver Eared John 17:27:38 12/24/05 (4)
- At least not since the Civil War, boy. nt - Norm 06:59:17 12/26/05 (3)
- Ain't no boy, neither. - Silver Eared John 23:42:36 12/28/05 (2)
- You are right, slick. nt - Norm 18:16:31 12/31/05 (1)
- Ain't no slick neither. - Silver Eared John 10:26:36 01/03/06 (0)
- And don't try to tell us.... - mkuller 12:26:57 12/23/05 (3)
- Y'all, know what? IThat stuff is validation... - Silver Eared John 14:32:03 12/23/05 (2)
- Lying once again... - mkuller 20:04:33 12/23/05 (1)
- Now, y'all shift the bar again... Ducing and weaving - again. - Silver Eared John 23:02:50 12/26/05 (0)
- Proof, please! - kerr 17:10:25 12/22/05 (60)
- I hain't got no extraordinary claim... - Silver Eared John 14:34:08 12/23/05 (39)
- No… - David Aiken 20:18:59 12/23/05 (32)
- Hey, David... - Silver Eared John 17:30:26 12/24/05 (22)
- Done Homework - David Aiken 17:32:57 12/25/05 (20)
- Thank you, David! And nothing I've read is more egregious than... - clarkjohnsen 09:20:42 12/27/05 (1)
- Well, y'all need to take that up with the AES, Clark? - Silver Eared John 19:14:04 12/27/05 (0)
- One thing I have to agree with... - Silver Eared John 23:25:12 12/26/05 (17)
- Come on! - kerr 09:30:45 12/27/05 (2)
- How come y'all didn't notice the other times I said that sort of thing? - Silver Eared John 23:16:40 12/27/05 (1)
- Re: How come y'all didn't notice the other times I said that sort of thing? - kerr 04:37:09 12/28/05 (0)
- And a couple of comments I'll make... - David Aiken 00:42:28 12/27/05 (13)
- And, y'all made it worthwhile... - Silver Eared John 19:06:06 12/27/05 (0)
- Important to note, that no one's beholden to another to supply "proof", despite the incessant demands on one's time. nt - clarkjohnsen 09:23:31 12/27/05 (11)
- True, but… - David Aiken 12:00:27 12/27/05 (10)
- Huh! But there are so many things to "prove". Look at Norm and Quint's explorations... - clarkjohnsen 13:59:19 12/27/05 (9)
- Re: Huh! But there are so many things to "prove". Look at Norm and Quint's explorations... - David Aiken 21:14:02 12/27/05 (4)
- "If anyone is going to do a test it should be the manufacturer." Hmm... - clarkjohnsen 08:06:57 12/28/05 (1)
- Clark, I'll disagree with some of your points… - David Aiken 14:25:07 12/28/05 (0)
- Well, we seem to agree again... - Silver Eared John 23:21:14 12/27/05 (1)
- Hair splittin'... - David Aiken 13:31:09 12/28/05 (0)
- Re: Huh! But there are so many things to "prove". Look at Norm and Quint's explorations... - kerr 14:22:20 12/27/05 (3)
- Whoa, there... - Silver Eared John 23:23:28 12/27/05 (1)
- Qualifier noted - kerr 06:56:45 12/28/05 (0)
- That's why a *sane* person must simply throw up his hands and say, "Enough!" nt - clarkjohnsen 14:27:36 12/27/05 (0)
- Doing homework - David Aiken 20:46:13 12/24/05 (0)
- "...relying on hearsay that there has been evidence." Oh, LOW BLOW! ;-) nt - clarkjohnsen 10:14:08 12/24/05 (0)
- Re: No… - $orabji! 21:06:22 12/23/05 (7)
- At least 5 or 6 of those, maybe more, have already been cited... - Silver Eared John 17:31:19 12/24/05 (0)
- Thanks - kerr 12:31:43 12/24/05 (0)
- Thanks for the citations. - Pat D 22:29:26 12/23/05 (4)
- Re: Thanks for the citations. - David Aiken 03:10:17 12/24/05 (3)
- Re: No… - $orabji! 22:45:03 12/24/05 (1)
- What they aren't telling y'all there.. - Silver Eared John 08:20:44 12/25/05 (0)
- Did it once, slick... - Silver Eared John 17:32:43 12/24/05 (0)
- Just as I suspected... - kerr 16:09:36 12/23/05 (5)
- Just as you knew... - Silver Eared John 16:31:20 12/23/05 (4)
- Yep! I knew! - kerr 19:09:16 12/23/05 (3)
- He's hopelessly weasely. Leave him in his hole. nt - clarkjohnsen 10:12:35 12/24/05 (2)
- Which one ya talkin' about, Clark? (nt) - Pat D 11:06:43 12/26/05 (1)
- Same one kerr was -- obviously. nt - clarkjohnsen 11:30:50 12/26/05 (0)
- "Instead of calling people liars..." And that's not the worst of it! - clarkjohnsen 10:35:11 12/23/05 (1)
- argle bargle grit grind... - Silver Eared John 14:30:51 12/23/05 (0)
- Re: Proof, please! - bjh 08:49:53 12/23/05 (17)
- Re: Proof, please! - kerr 16:21:51 12/23/05 (16)
- What part of "to the limits of physics" did you miss, sport? - Silver Eared John 16:33:53 12/23/05 (15)
- Read? I did not think you could given all the time you spend pontificating nonsense. nt nt - Norm 20:41:41 12/23/05 (1)
- Hey, smart one, I don't spout nonsense. - Silver Eared John 21:35:45 12/29/05 (0)
- "I presume JJ pointed it out." - Todd Krieger 19:34:32 12/23/05 (0)
- What's this? You have something? - kerr 19:13:27 12/23/05 (2)
- WE'RE ALL WAITING. nt - clarkjohnsen 10:08:10 12/24/05 (1)
- Then y'all go back and find it out. - Silver Eared John 17:40:35 12/24/05 (0)
- Re: What part of "to the limits of physics" did you miss, sport? - Pat D 17:14:42 12/23/05 (8)
- Re: What part of "to the limits of physics" did you miss, sport? - kerr 12:34:35 12/24/05 (4)
- 5th edition? - Pat D 17:53:57 12/24/05 (2)
- CRAP! - kerr 18:00:29 12/24/05 (1)
- Second edition ain't so bad, neither. - Silver Eared John 09:22:22 12/25/05 (0)
- And, proof y'all won't do the work. - Silver Eared John 17:34:55 12/24/05 (0)
- Woof, woof, yip, yip...(nt) - mkuller 20:08:44 12/23/05 (2)
- Unlike you, I actually look for evidence. - Pat D 22:07:40 12/23/05 (1)
- Because he won't put his money where his mouth is, Pat. - Silver Eared John 21:00:51 12/24/05 (0)
- The original Bambi B post, now deleted: "Good topic, Clark!" - clarkjohnsen 08:55:08 12/22/05 (0)
- The original Inmate 51 post, now deleted. - clarkjohnsen 08:52:37 12/22/05 (1)
- Inmate 51: See my comment to Chris F below. nt - clarkjohnsen 10:39:02 12/23/05 (0)
- The original RGA post, now deleted. - clarkjohnsen 08:51:01 12/22/05 (2)
- Re: The original RGA post, now deleted. - john curl 15:16:40 12/22/05 (1)
- "Well said, Clark." Yes, indeed -- but it wasn't by me! nt - clarkjohnsen 10:18:42 12/23/05 (0)
- I'll have to visit here more often. Everything happens while I'm gone. - Pat D 22:48:37 12/21/05 (0)
- I fully support The Bored's decision to kill off all the useless nonesense about DBTs, after all no one does them! Duh! - bjh 16:23:13 12/21/05 (4)
- Kill all the discussion which doesn't interest YOU?` - Chris_F 04:21:40 12/22/05 (1)
- "... ultimate arbitor"? I said I *support* The Bored's action (in this case), I didn't *demand*. Take a pill! nt - bjh 07:54:34 12/22/05 (0)
- More lies, eh? - Silver Eared John 22:18:25 12/21/05 (1)
- Shucks y'all might be right, and how could I have forgotten the Pro guys? Good thing I can blaim egenog! nt - bjh 23:11:44 12/21/05 (0)
- For the Bored - David Aiken 12:27:35 12/21/05 (29)
- I too am disapointed - Chris_F 15:00:16 12/21/05 (27)
- What is "sighted"? -- the original deleted Chris F post - clarkjohnsen 08:47:55 12/22/05 (26)
- Thank you Clark! - Chris_F 07:03:10 12/23/05 (25)
- Wine and me. Trust me: - clarkjohnsen 10:27:39 12/23/05 (24)
- Expectations - David Aiken 11:22:48 12/23/05 (11)
- Exactly. - markrohr 05:21:22 12/24/05 (5)
- DBT guys DO NOT WANT TO HEAR THAT!! nt - clarkjohnsen 10:05:29 12/24/05 (4)
- Nor will they answer it, apparently. nt - markrohr 06:03:51 12/25/05 (3)
- Now, don't lie like that... - Silver Eared John 08:23:15 12/25/05 (2)
- Mark Rohr sez: "...every ill-mannered, obdurate, condescending, and reliably content-free post you've made here." - clarkjohnsen 11:21:29 12/26/05 (0)
- Best lay off the eggnog. - markrohr 18:02:31 12/25/05 (0)
- "And expectations can be present in a blind test." Absolutely! Good point. A story: - clarkjohnsen 11:45:13 12/23/05 (4)
- I do that all the time! - Chris_F 14:24:15 12/23/05 (3)
- There was a *very funny* Peter Sellers movie about you... nt - clarkjohnsen 09:44:01 12/24/05 (2)
- Re: There was a *very funny* Peter Sellers movie about you... nt - Chris_F 14:45:12 12/24/05 (1)
- He was a time-and-motion-study man. Always with the stopwatch and the wary eye. Very funny. nt - clarkjohnsen 11:13:04 12/26/05 (0)
- A Golliath in David clothing. - Chris_F 11:22:17 12/23/05 (11)
- "I propose that a blind test is more valid." I'll see you halfway. - clarkjohnsen 11:55:27 12/23/05 (10)
- Now who all did that, Mister? - Silver Eared John 16:36:19 12/23/05 (2)
- "Transparency" employed ironic quotemarks, not quoting quotemarks. nt - clarkjohnsen 09:46:32 12/24/05 (1)
- And y'all accuse thers of weaselling? - Silver Eared John 17:36:29 12/24/05 (0)
- Bloodlust of the DBT savages? - Chris_F 14:21:01 12/23/05 (6)
- Just some colorful language referring to their always being at one's throat... - clarkjohnsen 09:35:17 12/24/05 (5)
- Re: Just some colorful language referring to their always being at one's throat... - Chris_F 14:33:23 12/24/05 (4)
- "I do not believe it likely that I would hear an improvement." What's belief got to do with it? - clarkjohnsen 11:11:49 12/26/05 (3)
- Do y'all know what science is? - Silver Eared John 23:27:33 12/26/05 (2)
- Hmm... Degree in physics, over twenty years experience in remote imaging... I sure know what science *isn't*. nt - clarkjohnsen 09:07:49 12/27/05 (1)
- Re: Hmm... Degree in physics, over twenty years experience in remote imaging... I sure know what science *isn't*. nt - Silver Eared John 19:07:32 12/27/05 (0)
- Agree on all points. nt - markrohr 13:38:30 12/21/05 (0)
- Aha! Location, Location, Location is now evident (or: we been told)...N/T - musetap 10:55:56 12/21/05 (0)
- Re: "It still remains that sighted listening is less reliable than controlled DBTs." That's an assertion; or is there pr - Dan Banquer 10:47:21 12/21/05 (9)
- “Sighted†and “blind†are metaphors for expectations biasing human judgment - Caymus 20:07:34 12/21/05 (1)
- Re: “Sighted†and “blind†are metaphors for expectations biasing human judgment - Dan Banquer 17:32:25 12/22/05 (0)
- 'Taint that simple. - Silver Eared John 18:35:43 12/21/05 (6)
- Re: 'Taint that simple - Dan Banquer 05:04:30 12/22/05 (0)
- Re: 'Taint that simple. - Pat D 21:19:11 12/21/05 (4)
- Wood you mean something by that? - Silver Eared John 22:18:54 12/21/05 (3)
- Re: Wood Effect - Mahatma Kane Jeeves 04:54:24 12/22/05 (1)
- Mine is Charles Wood. nt - clarkjohnsen 08:45:28 12/22/05 (0)
- That Wood be a testable hypothesis. - Pat D 22:39:01 12/21/05 (0)
- I'm surprised - Bambi B 09:28:58 12/21/05 (1)
- "I'm also surprised your DBT thread was deleted." Yes. Not moved. Deleted. nt - clarkjohnsen 13:00:22 12/21/05 (0)
- I flinched when you posted this yesterday, read some of it but - musetap 10:38:08 12/21/05 (2)
- "I believe someone owes you an explanation..." Agreed. nt - clarkjohnsen 12:59:35 12/21/05 (1)
- Nothing but chirping crickets so far. nt - markrohr 06:25:07 12/22/05 (0)
Follow Ups
- Re: Huh! But there are so many things to "prove". Look at Norm and Quint's explorations... - kerr 14:22:20 12/27/05 (3)
- Whoa, there... - Silver Eared John 23:23:28 12/27/05 (1)
- Qualifier noted - kerr 06:56:45 12/28/05 (0)
- That's why a *sane* person must simply throw up his hands and say, "Enough!" nt - clarkjohnsen 14:27:36 12/27/05 (0)
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