"And expectations can be present in a blind test." Absolutely! Good point. A story: - clarkjohnsen

Follow Ups Full Thread

Topic - "It still remains that sighted listening is less reliable than controlled DBTs." That's an assertion; or is there proof? - clarkjohnsen 09:10:14 12/21/05 (162)

Isnâ€™t it ironic that itâ€™s usually hardcore subjectivists denying DBTs? - Caymus 14:29:02 12/24/05 (22)

I'll try explaining it to you - kerr 17:58:26 12/24/05 (20)

No difference - â€œsightedâ€ listening has the exactly the SAME problems you mention - Caymus 19:29:52 12/24/05 (19)

True but I'm not claiming sighted listening to be superior overall - kerr 14:57:23 12/25/05 (18)

Out of curiousity... - Silver Eared John 10:25:35 01/03/06 (0)

Ah! So you take 'bias' as a personal matter, subject to your learning and volition. - Pat D 11:00:50 12/26/05 (16)

Re: Ah! So you take 'bias' as a personal matter, subject to your learning and volition. - kerr 13:22:30 12/26/05 (15)

Re: Ah! So you take 'bias' as a personal matter, subject to your learning and volition. - Pat D 20:53:53 12/26/05 (14)

Re: Ah! So you take 'bias' as a personal matter, subject to your learning and volition. - kerr 06:31:54 12/27/05 (13)

So the donkey would starve? (nt) - Pat D 09:56:56 12/27/05 (12)

No, he simply did the donkey version of eeny, meeny, miney mo! - kerr 10:26:06 12/27/05 (11)

You'll find a reason to favor one over the other - Caymus 12:44:37 12/27/05 (10)

Agreed - kerr 14:13:48 12/27/05 (9)

Busting the donkey scenario. - clarkjohnsen 15:09:03 12/27/05 (8)

Re: Busting the donkey scenario. - David Aiken 14:58:06 12/28/05 (1)

Trust you kept track of which was which... nt - clarkjohnsen 17:22:59 12/28/05 (0)

Heh, heh - kerr 17:09:00 12/27/05 (5)

And there you have it, in the words of the master... nt - clarkjohnsen 08:08:03 12/28/05 (0)

You still had to choose one before another. - Pat D 21:56:44 12/27/05 (3)

Your story has a point - kerr 04:33:43 12/28/05 (2)

Re: Your story has a point - gymwear5@hotmail.com 08:09:37 12/30/05 (1)

If that's the point of the donkey story... - kerr 09:49:33 12/30/05 (0)

Y'all noticed? - Silver Eared John 17:26:41 12/24/05 (0)

Moderators at the Christmas sherry already? DBTs? "BAH HUMBUG! [nt]" - chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com 12:05:00 12/22/05 (1)

'Fraid it's more than sherry. They're passed out! No response at all. Got 'em on life support... - clarkjohnsen 10:37:11 12/23/05 (0)

Yoo-Hoo!, Bored, obvious pot stiring rabble rouser CJ begging to a trip to you know where. nt - bjh 09:13:25 12/22/05 (0)

Meanwhile, over in Music (!) -- Not a DBT-free zone -- - clarkjohnsen 09:07:51 12/22/05 (0)

Original kerr post, now deleted: "Maybe." - clarkjohnsen 08:56:33 12/22/05 (76)

Yet more big lie.... - Silver Eared John 16:51:21 12/22/05 (75)

Why so much used equipment out there? - Dave Pogue 05:57:41 12/24/05 (1)

Opposite of slick = grunged. nt - clifff 13:26:25 12/26/05 (0)

How come so many used cars; the lack of DBTs? - Norm 14:26:12 12/23/05 (7)

And another evasion by Norm the master of unreality... - Silver Eared John 14:30:15 12/23/05 (6)

Man, can you understand anything, such as logic? And stop pretending to be a Southerner. nt . - Norm 20:36:15 12/23/05 (5)

I an't no Southerner, son... - Silver Eared John 17:27:38 12/24/05 (4)

At least not since the Civil War, boy. nt - Norm 06:59:17 12/26/05 (3)

Ain't no boy, neither. - Silver Eared John 23:42:36 12/28/05 (2)

You are right, slick. nt - Norm 18:16:31 12/31/05 (1)

Ain't no slick neither. - Silver Eared John 10:26:36 01/03/06 (0)

And don't try to tell us.... - mkuller 12:26:57 12/23/05 (3)

Y'all, know what? IThat stuff is validation... - Silver Eared John 14:32:03 12/23/05 (2)

Lying once again... - mkuller 20:04:33 12/23/05 (1)

Now, y'all shift the bar again... Ducing and weaving - again. - Silver Eared John 23:02:50 12/26/05 (0)

Proof, please! - kerr 17:10:25 12/22/05 (60)

I hain't got no extraordinary claim... - Silver Eared John 14:34:08 12/23/05 (39)

Noâ€¦ - David Aiken 20:18:59 12/23/05 (32)

Hey, David... - Silver Eared John 17:30:26 12/24/05 (22)

Done Homework - David Aiken 17:32:57 12/25/05 (20)

Thank you, David! And nothing I've read is more egregious than... - clarkjohnsen 09:20:42 12/27/05 (1)

Well, y'all need to take that up with the AES, Clark? - Silver Eared John 19:14:04 12/27/05 (0)

One thing I have to agree with... - Silver Eared John 23:25:12 12/26/05 (17)

Come on! - kerr 09:30:45 12/27/05 (2)

How come y'all didn't notice the other times I said that sort of thing? - Silver Eared John 23:16:40 12/27/05 (1)

Re: How come y'all didn't notice the other times I said that sort of thing? - kerr 04:37:09 12/28/05 (0)

And a couple of comments I'll make... - David Aiken 00:42:28 12/27/05 (13)

And, y'all made it worthwhile... - Silver Eared John 19:06:06 12/27/05 (0)

Important to note, that no one's beholden to another to supply "proof", despite the incessant demands on one's time. nt - clarkjohnsen 09:23:31 12/27/05 (11)

True, butâ€¦ - David Aiken 12:00:27 12/27/05 (10)

Huh! But there are so many things to "prove". Look at Norm and Quint's explorations... - clarkjohnsen 13:59:19 12/27/05 (9)

Re: Huh! But there are so many things to "prove". Look at Norm and Quint's explorations... - David Aiken 21:14:02 12/27/05 (4)

"If anyone is going to do a test it should be the manufacturer." Hmm... - clarkjohnsen 08:06:57 12/28/05 (1)

Clark, I'll disagree with some of your pointsâ€¦ - David Aiken 14:25:07 12/28/05 (0)

Well, we seem to agree again... - Silver Eared John 23:21:14 12/27/05 (1)

Hair splittin'... - David Aiken 13:31:09 12/28/05 (0)

Re: Huh! But there are so many things to "prove". Look at Norm and Quint's explorations... - kerr 14:22:20 12/27/05 (3)

Whoa, there... - Silver Eared John 23:23:28 12/27/05 (1)

Qualifier noted - kerr 06:56:45 12/28/05 (0)

That's why a *sane* person must simply throw up his hands and say, "Enough!" nt - clarkjohnsen 14:27:36 12/27/05 (0)

Doing homework - David Aiken 20:46:13 12/24/05 (0)

"...relying on hearsay that there has been evidence." Oh, LOW BLOW! ;-) nt - clarkjohnsen 10:14:08 12/24/05 (0)

Re: Noâ€¦ - $orabji! 21:06:22 12/23/05 (7)

At least 5 or 6 of those, maybe more, have already been cited... - Silver Eared John 17:31:19 12/24/05 (0)

Thanks - kerr 12:31:43 12/24/05 (0)

Thanks for the citations. - Pat D 22:29:26 12/23/05 (4)

Re: Thanks for the citations. - David Aiken 03:10:17 12/24/05 (3)

Re: Noâ€¦ - $orabji! 22:45:03 12/24/05 (1)

What they aren't telling y'all there.. - Silver Eared John 08:20:44 12/25/05 (0)

Did it once, slick... - Silver Eared John 17:32:43 12/24/05 (0)

Just as I suspected... - kerr 16:09:36 12/23/05 (5)

Just as you knew... - Silver Eared John 16:31:20 12/23/05 (4)

Yep! I knew! - kerr 19:09:16 12/23/05 (3)

He's hopelessly weasely. Leave him in his hole. nt - clarkjohnsen 10:12:35 12/24/05 (2)

Which one ya talkin' about, Clark? (nt) - Pat D 11:06:43 12/26/05 (1)

Same one kerr was -- obviously. nt - clarkjohnsen 11:30:50 12/26/05 (0)

"Instead of calling people liars..." And that's not the worst of it! - clarkjohnsen 10:35:11 12/23/05 (1)

argle bargle grit grind... - Silver Eared John 14:30:51 12/23/05 (0)

Re: Proof, please! - bjh 08:49:53 12/23/05 (17)

Re: Proof, please! - kerr 16:21:51 12/23/05 (16)

What part of "to the limits of physics" did you miss, sport? - Silver Eared John 16:33:53 12/23/05 (15)

Read? I did not think you could given all the time you spend pontificating nonsense. nt nt - Norm 20:41:41 12/23/05 (1)

Hey, smart one, I don't spout nonsense. - Silver Eared John 21:35:45 12/29/05 (0)

"I presume JJ pointed it out." - Todd Krieger 19:34:32 12/23/05 (0)

What's this? You have something? - kerr 19:13:27 12/23/05 (2)

WE'RE ALL WAITING. nt - clarkjohnsen 10:08:10 12/24/05 (1)

Then y'all go back and find it out. - Silver Eared John 17:40:35 12/24/05 (0)

Re: What part of "to the limits of physics" did you miss, sport? - Pat D 17:14:42 12/23/05 (8)

Re: What part of "to the limits of physics" did you miss, sport? - kerr 12:34:35 12/24/05 (4)

5th edition? - Pat D 17:53:57 12/24/05 (2)

CRAP! - kerr 18:00:29 12/24/05 (1)

Second edition ain't so bad, neither. - Silver Eared John 09:22:22 12/25/05 (0)

And, proof y'all won't do the work. - Silver Eared John 17:34:55 12/24/05 (0)

Woof, woof, yip, yip...(nt) - mkuller 20:08:44 12/23/05 (2)

Unlike you, I actually look for evidence. - Pat D 22:07:40 12/23/05 (1)

Because he won't put his money where his mouth is, Pat. - Silver Eared John 21:00:51 12/24/05 (0)

The original Bambi B post, now deleted: "Good topic, Clark!" - clarkjohnsen 08:55:08 12/22/05 (0)

The original Inmate 51 post, now deleted. - clarkjohnsen 08:52:37 12/22/05 (1)

Inmate 51: See my comment to Chris F below. nt - clarkjohnsen 10:39:02 12/23/05 (0)

The original RGA post, now deleted. - clarkjohnsen 08:51:01 12/22/05 (2)

Re: The original RGA post, now deleted. - john curl 15:16:40 12/22/05 (1)

"Well said, Clark." Yes, indeed -- but it wasn't by me! nt - clarkjohnsen 10:18:42 12/23/05 (0)

I'll have to visit here more often. Everything happens while I'm gone. - Pat D 22:48:37 12/21/05 (0)

I fully support The Bored's decision to kill off all the useless nonesense about DBTs, after all no one does them! Duh! - bjh 16:23:13 12/21/05 (4)

Kill all the discussion which doesn't interest YOU?` - Chris_F 04:21:40 12/22/05 (1)

"... ultimate arbitor"? I said I *support* The Bored's action (in this case), I didn't *demand*. Take a pill! nt - bjh 07:54:34 12/22/05 (0)

More lies, eh? - Silver Eared John 22:18:25 12/21/05 (1)

Shucks y'all might be right, and how could I have forgotten the Pro guys? Good thing I can blaim egenog! nt - bjh 23:11:44 12/21/05 (0)

For the Bored - David Aiken 12:27:35 12/21/05 (29)

I too am disapointed - Chris_F 15:00:16 12/21/05 (27)

What is "sighted"? -- the original deleted Chris F post - clarkjohnsen 08:47:55 12/22/05 (26)

Thank you Clark! - Chris_F 07:03:10 12/23/05 (25)

Wine and me. Trust me: - clarkjohnsen 10:27:39 12/23/05 (24)

Expectations - David Aiken 11:22:48 12/23/05 (11)

Exactly. - markrohr 05:21:22 12/24/05 (5)

DBT guys DO NOT WANT TO HEAR THAT!! nt - clarkjohnsen 10:05:29 12/24/05 (4)

Nor will they answer it, apparently. nt - markrohr 06:03:51 12/25/05 (3)

Now, don't lie like that... - Silver Eared John 08:23:15 12/25/05 (2)

Mark Rohr sez: "...every ill-mannered, obdurate, condescending, and reliably content-free post you've made here." - clarkjohnsen 11:21:29 12/26/05 (0)

Best lay off the eggnog. - markrohr 18:02:31 12/25/05 (0)

"And expectations can be present in a blind test." Absolutely! Good point. A story: - clarkjohnsen 11:45:13 12/23/05 (4)

I do that all the time! - Chris_F 14:24:15 12/23/05 (3)

There was a *very funny* Peter Sellers movie about you... nt - clarkjohnsen 09:44:01 12/24/05 (2)

Re: There was a *very funny* Peter Sellers movie about you... nt - Chris_F 14:45:12 12/24/05 (1)

He was a time-and-motion-study man. Always with the stopwatch and the wary eye. Very funny. nt - clarkjohnsen 11:13:04 12/26/05 (0)

A Golliath in David clothing. - Chris_F 11:22:17 12/23/05 (11)

"I propose that a blind test is more valid." I'll see you halfway. - clarkjohnsen 11:55:27 12/23/05 (10)

Now who all did that, Mister? - Silver Eared John 16:36:19 12/23/05 (2)

"Transparency" employed ironic quotemarks, not quoting quotemarks. nt - clarkjohnsen 09:46:32 12/24/05 (1)

And y'all accuse thers of weaselling? - Silver Eared John 17:36:29 12/24/05 (0)

Bloodlust of the DBT savages? - Chris_F 14:21:01 12/23/05 (6)

Just some colorful language referring to their always being at one's throat... - clarkjohnsen 09:35:17 12/24/05 (5)

Re: Just some colorful language referring to their always being at one's throat... - Chris_F 14:33:23 12/24/05 (4)

"I do not believe it likely that I would hear an improvement." What's belief got to do with it? - clarkjohnsen 11:11:49 12/26/05 (3)

Do y'all know what science is? - Silver Eared John 23:27:33 12/26/05 (2)

Hmm... Degree in physics, over twenty years experience in remote imaging... I sure know what science *isn't*. nt - clarkjohnsen 09:07:49 12/27/05 (1)

Re: Hmm... Degree in physics, over twenty years experience in remote imaging... I sure know what science *isn't*. nt - Silver Eared John 19:07:32 12/27/05 (0)

Agree on all points. nt - markrohr 13:38:30 12/21/05 (0)

Aha! Location, Location, Location is now evident (or: we been told)...N/T - musetap 10:55:56 12/21/05 (0)

Re: "It still remains that sighted listening is less reliable than controlled DBTs." That's an assertion; or is there pr - Dan Banquer 10:47:21 12/21/05 (9)

â€œSightedâ€ and â€œblindâ€ are metaphors for expectations biasing human judgment - Caymus 20:07:34 12/21/05 (1)

Re: â€œSightedâ€ and â€œblindâ€ are metaphors for expectations biasing human judgment - Dan Banquer 17:32:25 12/22/05 (0)

'Taint that simple. - Silver Eared John 18:35:43 12/21/05 (6)

Re: 'Taint that simple - Dan Banquer 05:04:30 12/22/05 (0)

Re: 'Taint that simple. - Pat D 21:19:11 12/21/05 (4)

Wood you mean something by that? - Silver Eared John 22:18:54 12/21/05 (3)

Re: Wood Effect - Mahatma Kane Jeeves 04:54:24 12/22/05 (1)

Mine is Charles Wood. nt - clarkjohnsen 08:45:28 12/22/05 (0)

That Wood be a testable hypothesis. - Pat D 22:39:01 12/21/05 (0)

I'm surprised - Bambi B 09:28:58 12/21/05 (1)

"I'm also surprised your DBT thread was deleted." Yes. Not moved. Deleted. nt - clarkjohnsen 13:00:22 12/21/05 (0)

I flinched when you posted this yesterday, read some of it but - musetap 10:38:08 12/21/05 (2)

"I believe someone owes you an explanation..." Agreed. nt - clarkjohnsen 12:59:35 12/21/05 (1)

Nothing but chirping crickets so far. nt - markrohr 06:25:07 12/22/05 (0)

Follow Ups

"And expectations can be present in a blind test." Absolutely! Good point. A story: - clarkjohnsen 11:45:13 12/23/05 (4)

I do that all the time! - Chris_F 14:24:15 12/23/05 (3)

There was a *very funny* Peter Sellers movie about you... nt - clarkjohnsen 09:44:01 12/24/05 (2)

Re: There was a *very funny* Peter Sellers movie about you... nt - Chris_F 14:45:12 12/24/05 (1)

He was a time-and-motion-study man. Always with the stopwatch and the wary eye. Very funny. nt - clarkjohnsen 11:13:04 12/26/05 (0)