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Hi Peter..and everybody else..

Peter: ""Unfortunately, this community has now reached the dysfunctional family stage.....""

You are incorrect. It has been beyond that point for many months now.

Peter: ""When I first joined, it seemed pretty clear (IMO) that the dysfunction was one-sided, but unfortunately Jon and others are dropping into the same behavior that they criticize""

You are entitled to your opinion, but it is clear from your history here, that you have an opinion which is skewed to one side. The same may be said of mine (but I wouldn't allude to that :-)

Peter...you forgot some recent gems...

"pig-headed, blinders on, one track mind of the naysayer clique."

"in excruciating detail to his anal retentive satisfaction"

"I don't expect a coherent response to this"

"acedemics, general EE's, and physics or EE students, are some of the most closed minded, text-book bound ones around"

"you are now just another zealous fanatic with a belief system."

"This is a good example of nit-picking, which is what you have been working overtime at"

"and yours was the WORD handed on down from high"

And, to make it quite clear..all of these are from JR (I'm sure it would have been pointed out, anyway..and I left out some from JC). This indeed highlights the lack of objectivity you show in presenting "offensive behaviour". (BTW, I didn't understand the "2 insults for the price of one").

Honestly, I don't give a crap about your beliefs about cables, nor anyone else here at prop.

I find the intellectual stimulation possibilities here rather staggering. Imagine being part of a group of individuals from around the world, who hypothesize physics level effects of electron conduction and transport beyond that which has been presently accepted. Imagine, much to the engineering community's surprise, that a previously dismissed effect turns out to be significant? Imagine the audio community finding that something believed is indeed not applicable? Being a romantic, I can dream of the possibility that my contribution on this forum could help resolve some of the questions, but remain surefooted enough to understand that it may never happen, I don't command the horsepower that may be required.

I find the "High End" audio community is mired in haphazard, random, sometimes ridiculous (yes, I can sometimes spell that correctly) hype, bogus science, and crazy ideas.

I believe that some audio "guru's", while running with the understanding that "cables can make a difference", have decided that a two camp system is the only way to go, and some even bolster that system for their own personal agenda. That agenda, of course, causes the real world of physicists and engineers to run in the other direction away from the "crackpots"...and the world of High End suffers that loss. To that end, I also see some science "guru's" (for lack of a more defining word to explain the doubting people who understand engineering) who choose the other side of the fence, and will fight any consideration of change, either in science, or beliefs..

And, some who toss debris in the path (yes, I said it again), without understanding what the path is.

To the last, I will elaborate..

The piezo calculations, although based in many educated guesses, is a starting point for discussion. To simply react to the numbers in an abusive, condescending fashion, as was done, was not productive. Discussion, as is evident within some of the branches, is the end goal of my start of calculations. I do not live or die based on whether the calculations prove an effect or disprove it. I am here for the technical discussion.

An avowed "naysayer", (bruce), performed a simple test study based on a "fence sitter's" (or more realistically, a person who refuses to play in this two camp dysfunction), me, post, where I calculated the level of effect of a handclap. And, recently, a "yeasayer" (Peter) proceeded with the calculations, to show that, damnation, piezo may indeed be relevant (and provable) for IC's in a typical listening enviro.

That's the method here, gentlemen..(pardon the categorizations, guys)

For the moderators::My recommendation is that any reference to the two camp system not be tolerated..The discipline of audio has suffered enough from those who would continue to support and foster the two camp system. The "naysayer/yeasayer" bullshit has got to stop. (I make no apologies for that swear).

For the owner: fostering a one camp forum, as is being done in "cable", and is being attempted in "tweaks", bears a striking resemblence to one hand clapping.

Cheers, John

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