Propeller Head Plaza Technical and scientific discussion of amps, cables and other topics.

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Re: You guys are good...

Posted by May Belt (M) on June 25, 2006 at 06:46:29

In Reply to: You guys are good... posted by Wellfed on June 24, 2006 at 09:02:17:

A good posting Wellfed. But, no sooner was your posting on Propeller Head Plaza than Caymus responded with exactly one from Labossiere's List of Fallacies by using one of the 'fallacy examples' he described i.e. The Red Herring - (Caymus had to bring in the example of the Nigerian fraud as his argument - obviously hoping it would be strong enough to end all arguments - or else why bring it in at all ?).
I agree with you Wellfed when you say "It would be nice to see if we can have SOME productive discussion before the mayhem actually breaks loose."

You can pick one example after another from Labossiere's List as a parallel from many people's responses on the different sections of Audio Asylum.
As 'thetubeguy' says (further down Prop Head Plaza "Bravo Clark")
"Still others tried to discredit my post by completely changing the direction of my original post and gearing it towards C37 & wooden knobs. I guess anything but discuss the possibility of trying to measure "these sounds" and discovering what part they play in our judging the realism of the replicated sound."
Which of Labossiere's List are you going to chose for people bringing into the argument the reference to the wooden knobs ?
Red Herring again ?
Poisoning the Well ?
Guilt by association ?
Confusing cause and effect ?
Appeal to Ridicule ?

The 'sounds' thetubeguy refers to are from the views of Deiter Ennemoser.
As thetubeguy says :-
Why not look into "these sounds" or musicality? It's equally possible that these audiophiles are not just fooling themselves, or allowing other audiophiles to influence them or that it's not a placebo effect..... So unless todays scientists or audio designers are willing to explore further in new directions, the possibility of there being something hidden that once discovered will revolutionise how audio components are measured, will remain only a pipe dream......
Just think for a moment. What is the THING the ear uses to determine almost instantly the music is live and not recorded? Perhaps audio systems that have more of that THING, whatever it is, is why some sound more musical than others! Musicality is often just another way of saying realistic and what's more realistic than live music? Perhaps this is the "these sounds" Dieter was refering to...... Why would anyone who loves audio/music not want to know the answer to this question?"

I agree. Why would anyone who loves audio/music not want to know the answer ?
Why would anyone not want to consider what someone else (Deiter Ennomoser) had reported observing.
Some people had responded to Deiter Ennomoser's observations by invoking another of Labossiere's Fallacies - that of Circumstantial Ed Hominem - 'that a person making a claim is making it simply out of self interest'. Deiter Ennomoser may have decided eventually to market a particular lacquer but he was also trying to alert people to the fact that a lacquer (a chemical) can change sound !!!

I do not know Deiter Ennemoser. I have never met him but I know the path he has been along by the way he writes. He describes finding a lacquer which improved the sound of the violins he was making. He then went on to try this lacquer on components of audio equipment and found that it gave him a similar improvement in the sound from his audio.
Peter and I have been down a similar path. But whilst 'thetubeguy' refers to the THING the ear uses to determine music, Peter and I take the 'THING the ear uses' to mean the whole hearing mechanism 'all the way to the working memory part of the brain'. That this whole mechanism (part of the survival mechanism) is involved with sound - not just the (early) physical part of the ear. That it is the information finally reaching the working memory which is used to construct the 'sound picture'. Meaning that it is more than just the acoustic information reaching the ear. It is about the information we also reading/sensing from the environment and trying to make sense of - and that can include CHEMICALS within that environment !!!

Which brings me to yet another of Labossiere's Fallacies - Ad Hominem
Ad Hominem:-
First, an attack against the character of person making the claim is made. Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:

1. Person A makes claim X.
2. Person B makes an attack on person A.
3. Therefore A's claim is false.

The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).

In answer to another posting of mine in which I gave an example from history, 'jsm' said "Science has actually progressed enormously since Pasteur and Lister".
Science itself may have progressed somewhat, but people do not seem to have progressed at all if all some people can contribute to discussions in the different sections of Audio Asylum is one of Labossiere's Fallacies after another !!! All that seems to have altered is the date, the year and the century.
I repeat 'Wellfed's' plea. "It would be nice to see if we can have SOME productive discussion before the mayhem actually breaks loose."
Regards,
May Belt.

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