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Propeller Head Plaza Technical and scientific discussion of amps, cables and other topics. |
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Propeller Head Plaza Technical and scientific discussion of amps, cables and other topics. |
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In Reply to: Re: The Gloves are off! posted by Soundmind on August 24, 2004 at 04:53:26:
[ What I find most disturbing is the consistant rejection not merely of any proposed objective methodology for measuring these simple devices and correlating their results with perceived differences but the rejection that such a methodology is even possible. ]It is obvious that you have never tried to measure a cable in situ with great precision. Test loads on the bench ain't gonna do it.
[ What is further disturbing is that there is some insistance that the electrical characterization of these devices is somehow to be disconnected from the way it alters electrical signals on an absolute basis and can only be characterized by how one device alters it compared to another. ]
What commuteman is saying is true: what really matters is how we percieve the cables (or insert any audio component here) to SOUND, while listening to music. In order to address that reality, you CAN NOT simply look at ONLY basic LCR parameters (or FR, S/N, and THD) with the assumption that you know which values mean that the cable sounds perfect.
His point is that no one so far has actually made the correlation between the simple, basic measurements that some folks hang their hats on, and what we will really hear. Those audio metric studies you refer to result in a very limited and very narrow and singular kind of data, and while the raw limits can be of interest, THEY DO NOT DEFINE WHAT WE CAN HEAR with music on a high performance playback system.Those audiometric studies generally used only sine waves or simple tones, with a "Lab standard speaker" as the signal source, and whatever listening subjects they could dredge up that would listen for minimum wage (the so-called general population).
It is YOU alone who are extrapolating from the very limited and singular results of those studies, to full blown music on a home playback system. The original researchers did not attempt to do this, they were wise enough to know that doing so was well beyond their purvue. With all the emphasis on logic, science and objectivity, I find it absolutely amazing that you do not realize that you just can't make any direct correlations with limits of hearing, JND's or any of the other RAW metrics, and listening to music over a playback system.
No one else has done so, and very few true scientists would claim to have done so without suitable peer-review from the appropriate prefessional group.[ I also need to know in advance by an objective method how to specify them without resorting to limitless trial and error. ]
Sorry, but if any of us come up with that, we will be in line for the Nobel prize. (jneutron said he would be there if I ever get it. :-) )
[ If the specifications traditionally used are inadequate, tell me specifications or test methodologies which correlate to real world performance and I will use them instead. ]
As above. The fact is, we don't know for sure. No one does, and anyone who pretends to is fooling themselves, but not too many others.
(Note: If you are truly interested, then I would suggest reading the Prop Head Archives, and use the AA search engine and some relevant key words, and I think you might be surprised at the depth of what has been discussed here up till now. I think yu might be introduced to more than a few new measurement possibilities that make a lot of sense).Audio amplifiers/preamps sonic performance are not wholly defined by their FR, S/N ratio, and THD. Add in several other of the traditional measurements, you are STILL not there yet. Not too many folks will argue with this, it is not really open to argument.
In fact, even if one were to perform every significant measurement known to audio science, it would still not fully characterize any given power amp, or allow one to predict with certainty which one might actually SOUND the best when used to play music into a loudspeaker, instead of test tones into a load resistor.The plain and simple FACT is, no one has yet come up with a measurement or measurement suite that can do this. Yet you are claiming to have the inside track, and to know better than every one else out there, including quite a few well regarded designers of high-end audio gear that post here at AA.
At this point, I would have to turn the tables on you and say, the burden of proof is on you, you have to show us that you have done what no one else has claimed to do: provide an infallible correlation between a particualr set of measurements and how well an audio component will perform, such that all one would have to do is follow this measurement regime, crunch the numbers, and without listening, be able to determine which DUT the music lovers and listeners would pick as sounding more like real music.
We're waiting.
Jon Risch
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Follow Ups
- One last attempt. - Jon Risch 20:38:34 08/24/04 (1)
- Incorrect again, dude... - jneutron 06:58:11 08/25/04 (0)
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