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Propeller Head Plaza Technical and scientific discussion of amps, cables and other topics. |
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Propeller Head Plaza Technical and scientific discussion of amps, cables and other topics. |
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In Reply to: Yep, y'all don't get it. posted by Silver Eared John on December 6, 2005 at 21:22:05:
It is only noise, if the tone is continuous. How can it be' accurate' if each instant is located in a box of uncertainty?
Now this reminds me of Dr. Stockham, who designed the Soundstream recorder, decades ago. He wanted to CHANGE the definition of harmonic distortion for DIGITAL to ALWAYS be referred to full output, even if measured at a lower level. That way, you wouldn't even have to dither to get great measurements.
SEJ, you might be 'mathematically' correct in some way, but it doesn't hold up with listening tests or even conceptually.
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Follow Ups Full ThreadTopic - Why early digital sounded so bad - KlausR. 03:53:25 11/25/05 (221)
- Retraction - Tre' 10:18:09 12/08/05 (23)
- Maybe it goes back to an industry that does not care about quality. Or maybe didn't know their asses from their eardrums - Tom Dawson 19:37:16 12/08/05 (22)
- You open with a description of the two limitations of RBCD - E-Stat 16:10:04 12/09/05 (16)
- So, what's the "usable" bandwidth, and how comes you don't use dither? - Silver Eared John 18:36:58 12/10/05 (15)
- Research the topic (nt) - E-Stat 06:20:42 12/11/05 (14)
- Coward, you made the claim. So now you us all the evidence. - Silver Eared John 17:36:29 12/12/05 (8)
- Google it and find it for yourself - we won't do your research...(nt) - mkuller 11:59:55 12/13/05 (7)
- Ain't he just the perfect *Timex* Country Bunkin ... takes a lickin but keeps on ... nt - bjh 19:36:17 12/13/05 (6)
- Lies, lies, and more lies... - Silver Eared John 23:34:03 12/13/05 (5)
- Re: Lies, lies, and more lies... - Dan Banquer 05:51:49 12/14/05 (4)
- BTW, when you *go*, any chance you've got extra room to take the old fella with ya'. LOL nt - bjh 07:41:20 12/14/05 (3)
- What y'all in prophead for anyhow? - Silver Eared John 11:28:09 12/14/05 (2)
- I'm here to point out that ... - bjh 16:57:24 12/14/05 (1)
- DO NOT FEED THIS TROLL NT. - Dan Banquer 17:27:48 12/14/05 (0)
- Oh, that's COLD, E-Stat! :) (nt) - kerr 17:22:14 12/12/05 (4)
- I find his games tiresome (nt) - E-Stat 16:55:05 12/13/05 (0)
- No, it's dishonest, quack-ridden, and deceptive - Silver Eared John 17:37:25 12/12/05 (2)
- And YOU owe us the proof of every assertion you've made...(nt) - mkuller 12:01:13 12/13/05 (1)
- I have, city boy. - Silver Eared John 23:32:53 12/13/05 (0)
- Y'all might have the crux of it there, Mr. Tom. - Silver Eared John 11:11:46 12/09/05 (0)
- Re: Maybe it goes back to an industry that does not care about quality. Or maybe didn't know their asses from their eard - Tre' 21:27:45 12/08/05 (3)
- Re: Maybe it goes back to an industry that does not care about quality. Or maybe didn't know their asses from their eard - Tom Dawson 21:56:01 12/08/05 (2)
- Re: Maybe it goes back to an industry that does not care about quality. Or maybe didn't know their asses from their eard - john curl 13:36:54 12/09/05 (1)
- Re: Maybe it goes back to an industry that does not care about quality. Or maybe didn't know their asses from their eard - john curl 13:54:32 12/09/05 (0)
- I don't know what tapes you are talking about. - Tre' 20:01:40 12/07/05 (8)
- Finally! - Ken Perkins 13:04:58 12/08/05 (0)
- Re: I don't know what tapes you are talking about. - Pat D 21:47:47 12/07/05 (6)
- Re: I don't know what tapes you are talking about. - Tre' 23:09:39 12/07/05 (5)
- Re: I don't know what tapes you are talking about. - Pat D 09:18:38 12/08/05 (1)
- Re: I don't know what tapes you are talking about. - john curl 10:36:22 12/08/05 (0)
- Re: I don't know what tapes you are talking about. - Tom Dawson 08:12:54 12/08/05 (0)
- What is the world is a "EQ'd cutting master tape"? - bjh 08:09:17 12/08/05 (1)
- Or "not normal" equalization (nt) - E-Stat 14:34:04 12/08/05 (0)
- Slightly off topic: I just read this thread, - bwkendall 18:03:54 12/02/05 (15)
- Some folks try to use "science"... - mkuller 11:38:23 12/04/05 (10)
- Well, at least they have their own sandbox to play in. It's when they come in for lunch that things get dicey. nt - markrohr 05:52:28 12/07/05 (0)
- Keep on stalkin', yall. - Silver Eared John 14:01:36 12/04/05 (4)
- You ARE JJ... - mkuller 14:23:30 12/04/05 (3)
- That tactic seems to be working with - bwkendall 14:50:54 12/06/05 (0)
- Yep - E-Stat 18:23:14 12/05/05 (0)
- Y'all just can't help it. - Silver Eared John 00:03:49 12/05/05 (0)
- Hah! That's nothing compared to... - andy_c 12:50:12 12/04/05 (3)
- Rec.audio.opinion??? - Silver Eared John 14:02:57 12/04/05 (2)
- blast from the past - tunenut 15:19:45 12/04/05 (1)
- Six years??? Amazing!!! - andy_c 15:33:15 12/04/05 (0)
- my personal rule-of-thumb - Bersani 09:51:15 12/03/05 (1)
- That's probably not a bad idea. - bwkendall 10:38:18 12/03/05 (0)
- No respect for science, then, y'all? - Silver Eared John 23:44:43 12/02/05 (1)
- Nope, that's not it at all. - bwkendall 10:36:17 12/03/05 (0)
- Some of it sounded bad, some mediocre, and some fabulous. - Pat D 21:29:56 11/29/05 (36)
- Never heard any 'fabulous' 16 bit PCM. nt - Tom Dawson 09:26:22 12/02/05 (34)
- My local subjectivists would disagree - Atexanathome 12:59:40 12/04/05 (0)
- Sorry you've had such bad luck. with CDs. - Pat D 15:39:24 12/02/05 (30)
- CDs are sonically inferior in microdynamics, rendering musical timbres,etc.. - Tom Dawson 21:42:27 12/03/05 (29)
- The CD medium is far more capable than LP - Pat D 10:32:01 12/04/05 (28)
- CD rising quantization distortion over lowest 30db several percent or more=bad sonic news - Tom Dawson 15:59:15 12/04/05 (27)
- Re: CD rising quantization distortion over lowest 30db several percent or more=bad sonic news - john curl 09:42:14 12/05/05 (17)
- Y'all confused, John? - Silver Eared John 00:47:09 12/06/05 (16)
- Re: Y'all confused, John? - john curl 10:51:52 12/06/05 (15)
- Yep, y'all don't get it. - Silver Eared John 21:22:05 12/06/05 (14)
- Re: Yep, y'all don't get it. - john curl 22:32:48 12/06/05 (13)
- No, John, you're still wrong. - Silver Eared John 23:25:25 12/07/05 (12)
- Re: No, John, you're still wrong. - john curl 10:26:50 12/08/05 (11)
- If y'all remove the dither, y'all aren't doing it right. - Silver Eared John 16:11:56 12/08/05 (10)
- Re: If y'all remove the dither, y'all aren't doing it right. - john curl 10:04:07 12/09/05 (9)
- Re: Better analogy - Mahatma Kane Jeeves 20:15:00 12/10/05 (4)
- Re: Better analogy - john curl 20:47:29 12/10/05 (3)
- Re: Better analogy - Mahatma Kane Jeeves 03:52:56 12/11/05 (2)
- Re: Better analogy - john curl 12:01:25 12/11/05 (1)
- Y'all wrong again... - Silver Eared John 23:36:04 12/13/05 (0)
- Y'all are dodging... - Silver Eared John 11:15:03 12/09/05 (3)
- Re: Y'all are dodging... - Tom Dawson 07:26:22 12/12/05 (0)
- Re: Y'all are dodging... - john curl 14:02:14 12/09/05 (1)
- Y'all remove dither, it's broke. - Silver Eared John 14:20:20 12/09/05 (0)
- Y'all jokin', right? - Silver Eared John 00:09:21 12/05/05 (5)
- Geez-o-weez! Just check any prosound mixer or recorder on the market. Even the cheap ones are 24 bit - Tom Dawson 13:07:22 12/05/05 (3)
- Yeah, they certainly are... - Silver Eared John 17:16:45 12/05/05 (2)
- What would happen... - Wellfed 04:48:40 12/10/05 (1)
- Well, you'd get a touch too many bits :) - Silver Eared John 18:35:01 12/10/05 (0)
- Naw, they ain't jokin'! - Pat D 12:26:03 12/05/05 (0)
- CD is a much better medium than LP. - Pat D 23:54:36 12/04/05 (2)
- "Lots" of magnificent recordings on CD? Not to my ears. - Tom Dawson 12:43:18 12/05/05 (1)
- You must listen to different CDs than I do. - Pat D 15:14:36 12/05/05 (0)
- Re: Never heard any 'fabulous' 16 bit PCM. nt - macaque 13:53:17 12/02/05 (1)
- Re: Never heard any 'fabulous' 16 bit PCM. nt - Tom Dawson 21:52:05 12/03/05 (0)
- Re: Sounds about right; kind of the same today, one might say... nt - geoffkait 09:26:16 12/02/05 (0)
- Re: Why early digital sounded so bad - Tom Dawson 10:54:21 11/29/05 (4)
- Re: Why early digital sounded so bad - Todd Krieger 12:33:49 11/29/05 (3)
- Re: Why early digital sounded so bad - regmac 13:35:56 11/29/05 (1)
- Re: Why early digital sounded so bad - Tom Dawson 08:05:35 11/30/05 (0)
- Must say I've had good luck with Digital on LP, in fact - bjh 13:01:27 11/29/05 (0)
- Simply get samples of early players and listen to them with modern 'audiophile' quality CDs. ... - bjh 10:54:23 11/28/05 (66)
- Presumes the transports don't age... - Al Sekela 14:30:55 11/29/05 (5)
- I was nodding agreement until you got to the part about phono carts - Dave Pogue 14:46:51 11/29/05 (4)
- That's a new one for me. - Al Sekela 13:53:25 11/30/05 (3)
- Re: That's a new one for me. - Dave Pogue 14:15:35 11/30/05 (2)
- Thanks! Great site! (nt) - Al Sekela 14:24:22 12/01/05 (0)
- It's also good at renewing aged (slipping) belts in cassette decks and such. nt - markrohr 04:10:31 12/01/05 (0)
- Re: Simply get samples of early players and listen to them with modern 'audiophile' quality CDs. ... - john curl 09:57:06 11/29/05 (5)
- Re: Simply get samples of early players and listen to them with modern 'audiophile' quality CDs. ... - Tom Dawson 10:02:07 11/30/05 (0)
- Re: Simply get samples of early players and listen to them with modern 'audiophile' quality CDs. ... - regmac 12:14:24 11/29/05 (1)
- Re: Simply get samples of early players and listen to them with modern 'audiophile' quality CDs. ... - john curl 14:54:05 11/29/05 (0)
- Re: Simply get samples of early players and listen to them with modern 'audiophile' quality CDs. ... - bjh 11:02:30 11/29/05 (1)
- Re: Simply get samples of early players and listen to them with modern 'audiophile' quality CDs. ... - morricab 06:07:16 12/01/05 (0)
- Mercifully - E-Stat 12:35:20 11/28/05 (53)
- Easier than that... - Silver Eared John 17:43:50 11/28/05 (52)
- Um, SEJ - E-Stat 20:13:50 11/28/05 (51)
- No, silly... - Silver Eared John 11:02:46 11/29/05 (44)
- Eh Slick, since you know of some dentist drill like brain rattlers ... - bjh 12:06:02 11/29/05 (2)
- It was a Beethoven symphony... - Silver Eared John 12:58:13 11/29/05 (1)
- Oh, sorry. I forgot to look. I'll try to remember later today. - Silver Eared John 12:50:38 12/03/05 (0)
- It's easy enough to try - E-Stat 11:19:10 11/29/05 (40)
- Y'all don't get it, do y'all? - Silver Eared John 12:56:44 11/29/05 (39)
- What then - E-Stat 14:09:04 11/29/05 (38)
- Y'all want me to explain in words what I hear? - Silver Eared John 15:41:34 11/29/05 (37)
- Please elaborate on this observation - E-Stat 15:58:05 11/29/05 (36)
- So, again, y'all spewing hate without knowing what you're talking about, eh? - Silver Eared John 09:37:09 11/30/05 (35)
- Re: So, again, y'all spewing hate without knowing what you're talking about, eh? - john curl 09:53:06 11/30/05 (29)
- First, birdbrain, the name is "John" - Silver Eared John 11:48:12 11/30/05 (28)
- There - that's wasn't difficult, now was it? - E-Stat 12:37:02 11/30/05 (21)
- And y'all still don't understand... - Silver Eared John 14:00:29 11/30/05 (20)
- What then is a "normal" equalizer ? (nt) - E-Stat 17:12:21 11/30/05 (0)
- So explain it then...... - mkuller 14:28:32 11/30/05 (18)
- Go read the book, eh? - Silver Eared John 23:18:29 11/30/05 (17)
- There's absolutely no difference... - mkuller 11:22:22 12/01/05 (16)
- Hold on, Mike - E-Stat 14:16:16 12/01/05 (15)
- More dishonesty... Y'all a flat-out liar, chump - Silver Eared John 16:51:29 12/01/05 (14)
- Logic is not your forte - E-Stat 17:25:58 12/01/05 (13)
- Once again, y'all hide when y'all get caught... - Silver Eared John 17:52:01 12/01/05 (12)
- Uh oh, caught...evasive tactics...dive, dive, dive! LOL! (nt) - mkuller 09:45:46 12/02/05 (10)
- You're not even creative. - Silver Eared John 14:34:57 12/02/05 (9)
- I'm still waiting - E-Stat 18:10:01 12/02/05 (8)
- RTFM - Silver Eared John 23:46:17 12/02/05 (7)
- Re: RTFM - john curl 00:10:08 12/03/05 (6)
- Sorry y'all aren't an LP engineer. - Silver Eared John 00:10:38 12/05/05 (2)
- Re: Sorry y'all aren't an LP engineer. - john curl 13:37:40 12/07/05 (1)
- Ask him about EQ in the compression vs. displacement range - Silver Eared John 21:53:11 12/08/05 (0)
- Game over - E-Stat 07:38:28 12/03/05 (2)
- Nope, that's not it. - Silver Eared John 00:11:32 12/05/05 (0)
- Re: Game over - john curl 10:01:50 12/03/05 (0)
- Ok, ignore what you've said - E-Stat 19:16:55 12/01/05 (0)
- Only a fool would thow out claims and then insist others run around to confirm. LOL nt. - bjh 11:55:55 11/30/05 (5)
- I'm not responsible for other's ignorance, you know... - Silver Eared John 14:01:28 11/30/05 (4)
- Only a fool would thow out claims and then insist others run around to confirm. LOL nt. - bjh 15:57:40 11/30/05 (3)
- Son, I stated a fact... - Silver Eared John 14:36:02 12/02/05 (2)
- Only a fool would thow out claims and then insist others run around to confirm. LOL nt. - bjh 19:07:50 12/02/05 (1)
- You're a liar, slick... - Silver Eared John 17:43:49 12/12/05 (0)
- I really didn't think you knew either. (nt) - E-Stat 09:48:11 11/30/05 (4)
- Buy the book, learn for yourself, and don't lie about me. - Silver Eared John 11:50:35 11/30/05 (3)
- Re: Buy the book, learn for yourself, and don't lie about me. - john curl 16:54:36 11/30/05 (2)
- What's wrong, cat got yer tongue, slick? - Silver Eared John 23:16:35 11/30/05 (1)
- Re: What's wrong, cat got yer tongue, slick? - john curl 08:24:44 12/01/05 (0)
- I believe there have been some DBTs . . . - Pat D 21:02:22 11/28/05 (5)
- DBTs and actual differences. . . - mkuller 14:37:31 11/29/05 (0)
- Hey Pat the claim is that there are older CDs that sound ... - bjh 05:30:22 11/29/05 (3)
- You are confused. - Pat D 16:25:29 11/29/05 (2)
- Since I doubt I could improve on the sentiment ... - bjh 19:39:34 11/29/05 (1)
- So you support someone else's invalid argument? - Pat D 20:32:29 11/29/05 (0)
- Re: Why early digital sounded so bad - Todd Krieger 00:26:37 11/28/05 (0)
- This is a highly amusing fairy tale - E-Stat 10:08:37 11/26/05 (47)
- Y'all got some proof about this "fairy tale" thing y'all said? - Silver Eared John 17:33:23 11/27/05 (46)
- Re: Y'all got some proof about this "fairy tale" thing y'all said? - john curl 19:13:14 11/27/05 (1)
- Let's see it, then. - Silver Eared John 20:54:06 11/27/05 (0)
- Ah, so you can't hear the difference between - E-Stat 18:52:42 11/27/05 (43)
- Got anything of substance to add? - Silver Eared John 20:54:40 11/27/05 (42)
- You first - E-Stat 04:44:45 11/28/05 (41)
- Don't lie about what I said, slick, don't lie - Silver Eared John 10:44:11 11/28/05 (40)
- No that is not at all what you said - E-Stat 11:25:51 11/28/05 (39)
- I'm not responsible for your inability to read... - Silver Eared John 11:43:42 11/28/05 (38)
- Backpeddling accepted - E-Stat 12:06:12 11/28/05 (37)
- Don't lie about what I'm doing. - Silver Eared John 17:39:36 11/28/05 (23)
- Suggestion - E-Stat 20:08:56 11/28/05 (22)
- Grammar and logic - Pat D 21:17:46 11/28/05 (21)
- Reading retention - E-Stat 05:03:00 11/29/05 (20)
- Uhhh . . . I never said it was in this thread! - Pat D 16:17:57 11/29/05 (16)
- Sorry, I'm not a mind reader - E-Stat 16:25:57 11/29/05 (15)
- Then stop trying to do it! - Pat D 17:00:39 11/29/05 (14)
- You'll have to excuse PatD... - mkuller 09:57:24 11/30/05 (2)
- Another ad hominem 'argument' - Pat D 08:41:55 12/01/05 (1)
- "More" would be superfluous. nt - bjh 10:27:53 12/01/05 (0)
- I really don't know why I waste my time - E-Stat 17:27:08 11/29/05 (10)
- You take a snippet from one person here, another person there and prove . . . what? - Pat D 21:06:12 11/29/05 (9)
- He has to, Pat... - Silver Eared John 23:17:12 11/30/05 (8)
- SEJJ - Making things up... - mkuller 14:12:01 12/01/05 (7)
- Once again, you misrepresent the facts. - Silver Eared John 20:22:23 12/01/05 (6)
- No facts involved... - mkuller 09:50:24 12/02/05 (5)
- Y'all can not deny the quote in the other thread... - Silver Eared John 14:33:18 12/02/05 (4)
- Lies squared... - mkuller 10:49:48 12/03/05 (3)
- The quote is there, visible, and easy to read. - Silver Eared John 17:18:53 12/05/05 (2)
- More lies... - mkuller 12:42:57 12/08/05 (1)
- It's in plain sight. - Silver Eared John 17:44:48 12/12/05 (0)
- Avoiding the issue 101 - Learn it from E-Stat - Silver Eared John 11:01:39 11/29/05 (2)
- Despite your conflicting posts, it now seems - E-Stat 11:33:50 11/29/05 (1)
- My posts don't conflict - Silver Eared John 12:59:20 11/29/05 (0)
- LOL!...wasting your time jousting with idiots, I see...(nt) - mkuller 13:39:01 11/28/05 (12)
- Still stalking, I see. - Silver Eared John 17:40:19 11/28/05 (1)
- Who let you out of the ghetto? - mkuller 10:05:22 11/30/05 (0)
- Well, unfortunately - E-Stat 14:10:34 11/28/05 (9)
- You're giving him... - mkuller 15:53:09 11/28/05 (8)
- Y'all may have to prove your claim, slick... - Silver Eared John 17:42:30 11/28/05 (7)
- Re: Y'all may have to prove your claim, slick... - john curl 18:09:10 11/28/05 (6)
- Why don't y'all stop calling me names - Silver Eared John 18:45:59 11/28/05 (5)
- Hey Slick, when'd y'all get outta the name calling bus.? Don't likes it no mores? Live a county bunkin, die a ... -t - bjh 04:59:58 11/29/05 (0)
- 'Cause You Call Everyone "Slick"..... - Todd Krieger 01:01:55 11/29/05 (0)
- Re: Why don't y'all stop calling me names - john curl 23:56:56 11/28/05 (2)
- Re: Why don't y'all stop calling me names - john curl 09:59:05 11/30/05 (0)
- Well, excuuuuse me, Mr. Bemis - Silver Eared John 09:41:24 11/30/05 (0)
- Re: Why early digital sounded so bad - macaque 08:57:15 11/26/05 (3)
- Re: Why early digital sounded so bad - KlausR. 22:15:29 11/26/05 (2)
- Why did early titles have such a problem supplying sufficient gain? [nt] - Wellfed 08:37:20 11/27/05 (1)
- Re: Why did early titles have such a problem supplying sufficient gain? [nt] - macaque 10:02:26 11/27/05 (0)
- That's a red herring - Bersani 11:37:39 11/25/05 (4)
- Re: That's a red herring - KlausR. 04:42:10 11/27/05 (3)
- Your argument applies to the Edison cylinder, not so much the CD - Bersani 09:56:54 11/27/05 (2)
- Re: Your argument applies to the Edison cylinder, not so much the CD - KlausR. 23:55:07 11/27/05 (1)
- Re: Your argument applies to the Edison cylinder, not so much the CD - Bersani 17:05:24 11/29/05 (0)
- So when they remaster they remove this?? - Robert Hamel 05:13:06 11/25/05 (4)
- Re: So when they remaster they remove this?? - KlausR. 06:25:43 11/25/05 (3)
- Re: So when they remaster they remove this?? - Bersani 13:18:10 11/25/05 (1)
- Re: Exercise care when feeding troll, keep hands well away from his mouth nt - geoffkait 16:06:51 11/25/05 (0)
- Re: So when they remaster they remove this?? - john curl 09:24:44 11/25/05 (0)
Follow Ups
- Re: Yep, y'all don't get it. - john curl 22:32:48 12/06/05 (13)
- No, John, you're still wrong. - Silver Eared John 23:25:25 12/07/05 (12)
- Re: No, John, you're still wrong. - john curl 10:26:50 12/08/05 (11)
- If y'all remove the dither, y'all aren't doing it right. - Silver Eared John 16:11:56 12/08/05 (10)
- Re: If y'all remove the dither, y'all aren't doing it right. - john curl 10:04:07 12/09/05 (9)
- Re: Better analogy - Mahatma Kane Jeeves 20:15:00 12/10/05 (4)
- Re: Better analogy - john curl 20:47:29 12/10/05 (3)
- Re: Better analogy - Mahatma Kane Jeeves 03:52:56 12/11/05 (2)
- Re: Better analogy - john curl 12:01:25 12/11/05 (1)
- Y'all wrong again... - Silver Eared John 23:36:04 12/13/05 (0)
- Y'all are dodging... - Silver Eared John 11:15:03 12/09/05 (3)
- Re: Y'all are dodging... - Tom Dawson 07:26:22 12/12/05 (0)
- Re: Y'all are dodging... - john curl 14:02:14 12/09/05 (1)
- Y'all remove dither, it's broke. - Silver Eared John 14:20:20 12/09/05 (0)
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