It's easy enough to try - E-Stat - Propeller Head Plaza

Follow Ups Full Thread

Topic - Why early digital sounded so bad - KlausR. 03:53:25 11/25/05 (221)

Retraction - Tre' 10:18:09 12/08/05 (23)

Maybe it goes back to an industry that does not care about quality. Or maybe didn't know their asses from their eardrums - Tom Dawson 19:37:16 12/08/05 (22)

You open with a description of the two limitations of RBCD - E-Stat 16:10:04 12/09/05 (16)

So, what's the "usable" bandwidth, and how comes you don't use dither? - Silver Eared John 18:36:58 12/10/05 (15)

Research the topic (nt) - E-Stat 06:20:42 12/11/05 (14)

Coward, you made the claim. So now you us all the evidence. - Silver Eared John 17:36:29 12/12/05 (8)

Google it and find it for yourself - we won't do your research...(nt) - mkuller 11:59:55 12/13/05 (7)

Ain't he just the perfect *Timex* Country Bunkin ... takes a lickin but keeps on ... nt - bjh 19:36:17 12/13/05 (6)

Lies, lies, and more lies... - Silver Eared John 23:34:03 12/13/05 (5)

Re: Lies, lies, and more lies... - Dan Banquer 05:51:49 12/14/05 (4)

BTW, when you *go*, any chance you've got extra room to take the old fella with ya'. LOL nt - bjh 07:41:20 12/14/05 (3)

What y'all in prophead for anyhow? - Silver Eared John 11:28:09 12/14/05 (2)

I'm here to point out that ... - bjh 16:57:24 12/14/05 (1)

DO NOT FEED THIS TROLL NT. - Dan Banquer 17:27:48 12/14/05 (0)

Oh, that's COLD, E-Stat! :) (nt) - kerr 17:22:14 12/12/05 (4)

I find his games tiresome (nt) - E-Stat 16:55:05 12/13/05 (0)

No, it's dishonest, quack-ridden, and deceptive - Silver Eared John 17:37:25 12/12/05 (2)

And YOU owe us the proof of every assertion you've made...(nt) - mkuller 12:01:13 12/13/05 (1)

I have, city boy. - Silver Eared John 23:32:53 12/13/05 (0)

Y'all might have the crux of it there, Mr. Tom. - Silver Eared John 11:11:46 12/09/05 (0)

Re: Maybe it goes back to an industry that does not care about quality. Or maybe didn't know their asses from their eard - Tre' 21:27:45 12/08/05 (3)

Re: Maybe it goes back to an industry that does not care about quality. Or maybe didn't know their asses from their eard - Tom Dawson 21:56:01 12/08/05 (2)

Re: Maybe it goes back to an industry that does not care about quality. Or maybe didn't know their asses from their eard - john curl 13:36:54 12/09/05 (1)

Re: Maybe it goes back to an industry that does not care about quality. Or maybe didn't know their asses from their eard - john curl 13:54:32 12/09/05 (0)

I don't know what tapes you are talking about. - Tre' 20:01:40 12/07/05 (8)

Finally! - Ken Perkins 13:04:58 12/08/05 (0)

Re: I don't know what tapes you are talking about. - Pat D 21:47:47 12/07/05 (6)

Re: I don't know what tapes you are talking about. - Tre' 23:09:39 12/07/05 (5)

Re: I don't know what tapes you are talking about. - Pat D 09:18:38 12/08/05 (1)

Re: I don't know what tapes you are talking about. - john curl 10:36:22 12/08/05 (0)

Re: I don't know what tapes you are talking about. - Tom Dawson 08:12:54 12/08/05 (0)

What is the world is a "EQ'd cutting master tape"? - bjh 08:09:17 12/08/05 (1)

Or "not normal" equalization (nt) - E-Stat 14:34:04 12/08/05 (0)

Slightly off topic: I just read this thread, - bwkendall 18:03:54 12/02/05 (15)

Some folks try to use "science"... - mkuller 11:38:23 12/04/05 (10)

Well, at least they have their own sandbox to play in. It's when they come in for lunch that things get dicey. nt - markrohr 05:52:28 12/07/05 (0)

Keep on stalkin', yall. - Silver Eared John 14:01:36 12/04/05 (4)

You ARE JJ... - mkuller 14:23:30 12/04/05 (3)

That tactic seems to be working with - bwkendall 14:50:54 12/06/05 (0)

Yep - E-Stat 18:23:14 12/05/05 (0)

Y'all just can't help it. - Silver Eared John 00:03:49 12/05/05 (0)

Hah! That's nothing compared to... - andy_c 12:50:12 12/04/05 (3)

Rec.audio.opinion??? - Silver Eared John 14:02:57 12/04/05 (2)

blast from the past - tunenut 15:19:45 12/04/05 (1)

Six years??? Amazing!!! - andy_c 15:33:15 12/04/05 (0)

my personal rule-of-thumb - Bersani 09:51:15 12/03/05 (1)

That's probably not a bad idea. - bwkendall 10:38:18 12/03/05 (0)

No respect for science, then, y'all? - Silver Eared John 23:44:43 12/02/05 (1)

Nope, that's not it at all. - bwkendall 10:36:17 12/03/05 (0)

Some of it sounded bad, some mediocre, and some fabulous. - Pat D 21:29:56 11/29/05 (36)

Never heard any 'fabulous' 16 bit PCM. nt - Tom Dawson 09:26:22 12/02/05 (34)

My local subjectivists would disagree - Atexanathome 12:59:40 12/04/05 (0)

Sorry you've had such bad luck. with CDs. - Pat D 15:39:24 12/02/05 (30)

CDs are sonically inferior in microdynamics, rendering musical timbres,etc.. - Tom Dawson 21:42:27 12/03/05 (29)

The CD medium is far more capable than LP - Pat D 10:32:01 12/04/05 (28)

CD rising quantization distortion over lowest 30db several percent or more=bad sonic news - Tom Dawson 15:59:15 12/04/05 (27)

Re: CD rising quantization distortion over lowest 30db several percent or more=bad sonic news - john curl 09:42:14 12/05/05 (17)

Y'all confused, John? - Silver Eared John 00:47:09 12/06/05 (16)

Re: Y'all confused, John? - john curl 10:51:52 12/06/05 (15)

Yep, y'all don't get it. - Silver Eared John 21:22:05 12/06/05 (14)

Re: Yep, y'all don't get it. - john curl 22:32:48 12/06/05 (13)

No, John, you're still wrong. - Silver Eared John 23:25:25 12/07/05 (12)

Re: No, John, you're still wrong. - john curl 10:26:50 12/08/05 (11)

If y'all remove the dither, y'all aren't doing it right. - Silver Eared John 16:11:56 12/08/05 (10)

Re: If y'all remove the dither, y'all aren't doing it right. - john curl 10:04:07 12/09/05 (9)

Re: Better analogy - Mahatma Kane Jeeves 20:15:00 12/10/05 (4)

Re: Better analogy - john curl 20:47:29 12/10/05 (3)

Re: Better analogy - Mahatma Kane Jeeves 03:52:56 12/11/05 (2)

Re: Better analogy - john curl 12:01:25 12/11/05 (1)

Y'all wrong again... - Silver Eared John 23:36:04 12/13/05 (0)

Y'all are dodging... - Silver Eared John 11:15:03 12/09/05 (3)

Re: Y'all are dodging... - Tom Dawson 07:26:22 12/12/05 (0)

Re: Y'all are dodging... - john curl 14:02:14 12/09/05 (1)

Y'all remove dither, it's broke. - Silver Eared John 14:20:20 12/09/05 (0)

Y'all jokin', right? - Silver Eared John 00:09:21 12/05/05 (5)

Geez-o-weez! Just check any prosound mixer or recorder on the market. Even the cheap ones are 24 bit - Tom Dawson 13:07:22 12/05/05 (3)

Yeah, they certainly are... - Silver Eared John 17:16:45 12/05/05 (2)

What would happen... - Wellfed 04:48:40 12/10/05 (1)

Well, you'd get a touch too many bits :) - Silver Eared John 18:35:01 12/10/05 (0)

Naw, they ain't jokin'! - Pat D 12:26:03 12/05/05 (0)

CD is a much better medium than LP. - Pat D 23:54:36 12/04/05 (2)

"Lots" of magnificent recordings on CD? Not to my ears. - Tom Dawson 12:43:18 12/05/05 (1)

You must listen to different CDs than I do. - Pat D 15:14:36 12/05/05 (0)

Re: Never heard any 'fabulous' 16 bit PCM. nt - macaque 13:53:17 12/02/05 (1)

Re: Never heard any 'fabulous' 16 bit PCM. nt - Tom Dawson 21:52:05 12/03/05 (0)

Re: Sounds about right; kind of the same today, one might say... nt - geoffkait 09:26:16 12/02/05 (0)

Re: Why early digital sounded so bad - Tom Dawson 10:54:21 11/29/05 (4)

Re: Why early digital sounded so bad - Todd Krieger 12:33:49 11/29/05 (3)

Re: Why early digital sounded so bad - regmac 13:35:56 11/29/05 (1)

Re: Why early digital sounded so bad - Tom Dawson 08:05:35 11/30/05 (0)

Must say I've had good luck with Digital on LP, in fact - bjh 13:01:27 11/29/05 (0)

Simply get samples of early players and listen to them with modern 'audiophile' quality CDs. ... - bjh 10:54:23 11/28/05 (66)

Presumes the transports don't age... - Al Sekela 14:30:55 11/29/05 (5)

I was nodding agreement until you got to the part about phono carts - Dave Pogue 14:46:51 11/29/05 (4)

That's a new one for me. - Al Sekela 13:53:25 11/30/05 (3)

Re: That's a new one for me. - Dave Pogue 14:15:35 11/30/05 (2)

Thanks! Great site! (nt) - Al Sekela 14:24:22 12/01/05 (0)

It's also good at renewing aged (slipping) belts in cassette decks and such. nt - markrohr 04:10:31 12/01/05 (0)

Re: Simply get samples of early players and listen to them with modern 'audiophile' quality CDs. ... - john curl 09:57:06 11/29/05 (5)

Re: Simply get samples of early players and listen to them with modern 'audiophile' quality CDs. ... - Tom Dawson 10:02:07 11/30/05 (0)

Re: Simply get samples of early players and listen to them with modern 'audiophile' quality CDs. ... - regmac 12:14:24 11/29/05 (1)

Re: Simply get samples of early players and listen to them with modern 'audiophile' quality CDs. ... - john curl 14:54:05 11/29/05 (0)

Re: Simply get samples of early players and listen to them with modern 'audiophile' quality CDs. ... - bjh 11:02:30 11/29/05 (1)

Re: Simply get samples of early players and listen to them with modern 'audiophile' quality CDs. ... - morricab 06:07:16 12/01/05 (0)

Mercifully - E-Stat 12:35:20 11/28/05 (53)

Easier than that... - Silver Eared John 17:43:50 11/28/05 (52)

Um, SEJ - E-Stat 20:13:50 11/28/05 (51)

No, silly... - Silver Eared John 11:02:46 11/29/05 (44)

Eh Slick, since you know of some dentist drill like brain rattlers ... - bjh 12:06:02 11/29/05 (2)

It was a Beethoven symphony... - Silver Eared John 12:58:13 11/29/05 (1)

Oh, sorry. I forgot to look. I'll try to remember later today. - Silver Eared John 12:50:38 12/03/05 (0)

It's easy enough to try - E-Stat 11:19:10 11/29/05 (40)

Y'all don't get it, do y'all? - Silver Eared John 12:56:44 11/29/05 (39)

What then - E-Stat 14:09:04 11/29/05 (38)

Y'all want me to explain in words what I hear? - Silver Eared John 15:41:34 11/29/05 (37)

Please elaborate on this observation - E-Stat 15:58:05 11/29/05 (36)

So, again, y'all spewing hate without knowing what you're talking about, eh? - Silver Eared John 09:37:09 11/30/05 (35)

Re: So, again, y'all spewing hate without knowing what you're talking about, eh? - john curl 09:53:06 11/30/05 (29)

First, birdbrain, the name is "John" - Silver Eared John 11:48:12 11/30/05 (28)

There - that's wasn't difficult, now was it? - E-Stat 12:37:02 11/30/05 (21)

And y'all still don't understand... - Silver Eared John 14:00:29 11/30/05 (20)

What then is a "normal" equalizer ? (nt) - E-Stat 17:12:21 11/30/05 (0)

So explain it then...... - mkuller 14:28:32 11/30/05 (18)

Go read the book, eh? - Silver Eared John 23:18:29 11/30/05 (17)

There's absolutely no difference... - mkuller 11:22:22 12/01/05 (16)

Hold on, Mike - E-Stat 14:16:16 12/01/05 (15)

More dishonesty... Y'all a flat-out liar, chump - Silver Eared John 16:51:29 12/01/05 (14)

Logic is not your forte - E-Stat 17:25:58 12/01/05 (13)

Once again, y'all hide when y'all get caught... - Silver Eared John 17:52:01 12/01/05 (12)

Uh oh, caught...evasive tactics...dive, dive, dive! LOL! (nt) - mkuller 09:45:46 12/02/05 (10)

You're not even creative. - Silver Eared John 14:34:57 12/02/05 (9)

I'm still waiting - E-Stat 18:10:01 12/02/05 (8)

RTFM - Silver Eared John 23:46:17 12/02/05 (7)

Re: RTFM - john curl 00:10:08 12/03/05 (6)

Sorry y'all aren't an LP engineer. - Silver Eared John 00:10:38 12/05/05 (2)

Re: Sorry y'all aren't an LP engineer. - john curl 13:37:40 12/07/05 (1)

Ask him about EQ in the compression vs. displacement range - Silver Eared John 21:53:11 12/08/05 (0)

Game over - E-Stat 07:38:28 12/03/05 (2)

Nope, that's not it. - Silver Eared John 00:11:32 12/05/05 (0)

Re: Game over - john curl 10:01:50 12/03/05 (0)

Ok, ignore what you've said - E-Stat 19:16:55 12/01/05 (0)

Only a fool would thow out claims and then insist others run around to confirm. LOL nt. - bjh 11:55:55 11/30/05 (5)

I'm not responsible for other's ignorance, you know... - Silver Eared John 14:01:28 11/30/05 (4)

Only a fool would thow out claims and then insist others run around to confirm. LOL nt. - bjh 15:57:40 11/30/05 (3)

Son, I stated a fact... - Silver Eared John 14:36:02 12/02/05 (2)

Only a fool would thow out claims and then insist others run around to confirm. LOL nt. - bjh 19:07:50 12/02/05 (1)

You're a liar, slick... - Silver Eared John 17:43:49 12/12/05 (0)

I really didn't think you knew either. (nt) - E-Stat 09:48:11 11/30/05 (4)

Buy the book, learn for yourself, and don't lie about me. - Silver Eared John 11:50:35 11/30/05 (3)

Re: Buy the book, learn for yourself, and don't lie about me. - john curl 16:54:36 11/30/05 (2)

What's wrong, cat got yer tongue, slick? - Silver Eared John 23:16:35 11/30/05 (1)

Re: What's wrong, cat got yer tongue, slick? - john curl 08:24:44 12/01/05 (0)

I believe there have been some DBTs . . . - Pat D 21:02:22 11/28/05 (5)

DBTs and actual differences. . . - mkuller 14:37:31 11/29/05 (0)

Hey Pat the claim is that there are older CDs that sound ... - bjh 05:30:22 11/29/05 (3)

You are confused. - Pat D 16:25:29 11/29/05 (2)

Since I doubt I could improve on the sentiment ... - bjh 19:39:34 11/29/05 (1)

So you support someone else's invalid argument? - Pat D 20:32:29 11/29/05 (0)

Re: Why early digital sounded so bad - Todd Krieger 00:26:37 11/28/05 (0)

This is a highly amusing fairy tale - E-Stat 10:08:37 11/26/05 (47)

Y'all got some proof about this "fairy tale" thing y'all said? - Silver Eared John 17:33:23 11/27/05 (46)

Re: Y'all got some proof about this "fairy tale" thing y'all said? - john curl 19:13:14 11/27/05 (1)

Let's see it, then. - Silver Eared John 20:54:06 11/27/05 (0)

Ah, so you can't hear the difference between - E-Stat 18:52:42 11/27/05 (43)

Got anything of substance to add? - Silver Eared John 20:54:40 11/27/05 (42)

You first - E-Stat 04:44:45 11/28/05 (41)

Don't lie about what I said, slick, don't lie - Silver Eared John 10:44:11 11/28/05 (40)

No that is not at all what you said - E-Stat 11:25:51 11/28/05 (39)

I'm not responsible for your inability to read... - Silver Eared John 11:43:42 11/28/05 (38)

Backpeddling accepted - E-Stat 12:06:12 11/28/05 (37)

Don't lie about what I'm doing. - Silver Eared John 17:39:36 11/28/05 (23)

Suggestion - E-Stat 20:08:56 11/28/05 (22)

Grammar and logic - Pat D 21:17:46 11/28/05 (21)

Reading retention - E-Stat 05:03:00 11/29/05 (20)

Uhhh . . . I never said it was in this thread! - Pat D 16:17:57 11/29/05 (16)

Sorry, I'm not a mind reader - E-Stat 16:25:57 11/29/05 (15)

Then stop trying to do it! - Pat D 17:00:39 11/29/05 (14)

You'll have to excuse PatD... - mkuller 09:57:24 11/30/05 (2)

Another ad hominem 'argument' - Pat D 08:41:55 12/01/05 (1)

"More" would be superfluous. nt - bjh 10:27:53 12/01/05 (0)

I really don't know why I waste my time - E-Stat 17:27:08 11/29/05 (10)

You take a snippet from one person here, another person there and prove . . . what? - Pat D 21:06:12 11/29/05 (9)

He has to, Pat... - Silver Eared John 23:17:12 11/30/05 (8)

SEJJ - Making things up... - mkuller 14:12:01 12/01/05 (7)

Once again, you misrepresent the facts. - Silver Eared John 20:22:23 12/01/05 (6)

No facts involved... - mkuller 09:50:24 12/02/05 (5)

Y'all can not deny the quote in the other thread... - Silver Eared John 14:33:18 12/02/05 (4)

Lies squared... - mkuller 10:49:48 12/03/05 (3)

The quote is there, visible, and easy to read. - Silver Eared John 17:18:53 12/05/05 (2)

More lies... - mkuller 12:42:57 12/08/05 (1)

It's in plain sight. - Silver Eared John 17:44:48 12/12/05 (0)

Avoiding the issue 101 - Learn it from E-Stat - Silver Eared John 11:01:39 11/29/05 (2)

Despite your conflicting posts, it now seems - E-Stat 11:33:50 11/29/05 (1)

My posts don't conflict - Silver Eared John 12:59:20 11/29/05 (0)

LOL!...wasting your time jousting with idiots, I see...(nt) - mkuller 13:39:01 11/28/05 (12)

Still stalking, I see. - Silver Eared John 17:40:19 11/28/05 (1)

Who let you out of the ghetto? - mkuller 10:05:22 11/30/05 (0)

Well, unfortunately - E-Stat 14:10:34 11/28/05 (9)

You're giving him... - mkuller 15:53:09 11/28/05 (8)

Y'all may have to prove your claim, slick... - Silver Eared John 17:42:30 11/28/05 (7)

Re: Y'all may have to prove your claim, slick... - john curl 18:09:10 11/28/05 (6)

Why don't y'all stop calling me names - Silver Eared John 18:45:59 11/28/05 (5)

Hey Slick, when'd y'all get outta the name calling bus.? Don't likes it no mores? Live a county bunkin, die a ... -t - bjh 04:59:58 11/29/05 (0)

'Cause You Call Everyone "Slick"..... - Todd Krieger 01:01:55 11/29/05 (0)

Re: Why don't y'all stop calling me names - john curl 23:56:56 11/28/05 (2)

Re: Why don't y'all stop calling me names - john curl 09:59:05 11/30/05 (0)

Well, excuuuuse me, Mr. Bemis - Silver Eared John 09:41:24 11/30/05 (0)

Re: Why early digital sounded so bad - macaque 08:57:15 11/26/05 (3)

Re: Why early digital sounded so bad - KlausR. 22:15:29 11/26/05 (2)

Why did early titles have such a problem supplying sufficient gain? [nt] - Wellfed 08:37:20 11/27/05 (1)

Re: Why did early titles have such a problem supplying sufficient gain? [nt] - macaque 10:02:26 11/27/05 (0)

That's a red herring - Bersani 11:37:39 11/25/05 (4)

Re: That's a red herring - KlausR. 04:42:10 11/27/05 (3)

Your argument applies to the Edison cylinder, not so much the CD - Bersani 09:56:54 11/27/05 (2)

Re: Your argument applies to the Edison cylinder, not so much the CD - KlausR. 23:55:07 11/27/05 (1)

Re: Your argument applies to the Edison cylinder, not so much the CD - Bersani 17:05:24 11/29/05 (0)

So when they remaster they remove this?? - Robert Hamel 05:13:06 11/25/05 (4)

Re: So when they remaster they remove this?? - KlausR. 06:25:43 11/25/05 (3)

Re: So when they remaster they remove this?? - Bersani 13:18:10 11/25/05 (1)

Re: Exercise care when feeding troll, keep hands well away from his mouth nt - geoffkait 16:06:51 11/25/05 (0)

Re: So when they remaster they remove this?? - john curl 09:24:44 11/25/05 (0)

Follow Ups

It's easy enough to try - E-Stat 11:19:10 11/29/05 (40)

Y'all don't get it, do y'all? - Silver Eared John 12:56:44 11/29/05 (39)

What then - E-Stat 14:09:04 11/29/05 (38)

Y'all want me to explain in words what I hear? - Silver Eared John 15:41:34 11/29/05 (37)

Please elaborate on this observation - E-Stat 15:58:05 11/29/05 (36)

So, again, y'all spewing hate without knowing what you're talking about, eh? - Silver Eared John 09:37:09 11/30/05 (35)

Re: So, again, y'all spewing hate without knowing what you're talking about, eh? - john curl 09:53:06 11/30/05 (29)

First, birdbrain, the name is "John" - Silver Eared John 11:48:12 11/30/05 (28)

There - that's wasn't difficult, now was it? - E-Stat 12:37:02 11/30/05 (21)

And y'all still don't understand... - Silver Eared John 14:00:29 11/30/05 (20)

What then is a "normal" equalizer ? (nt) - E-Stat 17:12:21 11/30/05 (0)

So explain it then...... - mkuller 14:28:32 11/30/05 (18)

Go read the book, eh? - Silver Eared John 23:18:29 11/30/05 (17)

There's absolutely no difference... - mkuller 11:22:22 12/01/05 (16)

Hold on, Mike - E-Stat 14:16:16 12/01/05 (15)

More dishonesty... Y'all a flat-out liar, chump - Silver Eared John 16:51:29 12/01/05 (14)

Logic is not your forte - E-Stat 17:25:58 12/01/05 (13)

Once again, y'all hide when y'all get caught... - Silver Eared John 17:52:01 12/01/05 (12)

Uh oh, caught...evasive tactics...dive, dive, dive! LOL! (nt) - mkuller 09:45:46 12/02/05 (10)

You're not even creative. - Silver Eared John 14:34:57 12/02/05 (9)

I'm still waiting - E-Stat 18:10:01 12/02/05 (8)

RTFM - Silver Eared John 23:46:17 12/02/05 (7)

Re: RTFM - john curl 00:10:08 12/03/05 (6)

Sorry y'all aren't an LP engineer. - Silver Eared John 00:10:38 12/05/05 (2)

Re: Sorry y'all aren't an LP engineer. - john curl 13:37:40 12/07/05 (1)

Ask him about EQ in the compression vs. displacement range - Silver Eared John 21:53:11 12/08/05 (0)

Game over - E-Stat 07:38:28 12/03/05 (2)

Nope, that's not it. - Silver Eared John 00:11:32 12/05/05 (0)

Re: Game over - john curl 10:01:50 12/03/05 (0)

Ok, ignore what you've said - E-Stat 19:16:55 12/01/05 (0)

Only a fool would thow out claims and then insist others run around to confirm. LOL nt. - bjh 11:55:55 11/30/05 (5)

I'm not responsible for other's ignorance, you know... - Silver Eared John 14:01:28 11/30/05 (4)

Only a fool would thow out claims and then insist others run around to confirm. LOL nt. - bjh 15:57:40 11/30/05 (3)

Son, I stated a fact... - Silver Eared John 14:36:02 12/02/05 (2)

Only a fool would thow out claims and then insist others run around to confirm. LOL nt. - bjh 19:07:50 12/02/05 (1)

You're a liar, slick... - Silver Eared John 17:43:49 12/12/05 (0)

I really didn't think you knew either. (nt) - E-Stat 09:48:11 11/30/05 (4)

Buy the book, learn for yourself, and don't lie about me. - Silver Eared John 11:50:35 11/30/05 (3)

Re: Buy the book, learn for yourself, and don't lie about me. - john curl 16:54:36 11/30/05 (2)

What's wrong, cat got yer tongue, slick? - Silver Eared John 23:16:35 11/30/05 (1)

Re: What's wrong, cat got yer tongue, slick? - john curl 08:24:44 12/01/05 (0)