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Speaker Asylum General speaker questions for audio and home theater. |
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Speaker Asylum General speaker questions for audio and home theater. |
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In Reply to: When I hear you say "Everything makes a difference", then I know all thinking has stopped posted by Richard BassNut Greene on December 14, 2006 at 08:23:08:
C'mon Richard, spend less time measuring and more time listening.You obviously have no acumen setting up systems in a way that involves anything outside of the domain of frequency response. There is more to good sound than that. Timing for instance. My point was that if two speakers are out of balance that there will be two arrivals of the initial wave front, resulting in the perception of even more dulled bass than is caused by room peaks and the like (which do exist). Whether at the fundamental or higher in frequency, it is still perceptible. Again this has been taught, experienced, acted on and repeated by many people so simply because you have never heard it or experienced it doesn't matter. Shocking for someone with as many years experience as you have.
"Should the leading edge of the bass note arrive at the ears at exactly the same time as the rest of the note?Of course that would be best in theory but is impossible in practice because:
- We have timing effects from having a bass note spread over two or even three drivers,
- We have phase effects from crossover filters, and
- We have huge phase effects from early reflections off room surfaces to deal with. "
Yes all of that is fine, but if the two speakers are out of time with each other, the difference between the two worsens all of the above and cause the roolm to interact even more adversly which in turn requires more EQ to fix.
Also tonal symmetry in the stage. You may have a peak at 2Kz in the right channel but EQ-ing that frequency down won't help if there is a nasty reflection off the right wall that doens't ocurr on the left side of the room. My point is deal with material issues in a material way as much as you can before applying electrical solutions like EQ. If you were here I could demonstrate it as I have many many many many times.The other point about musical instruments having no bass transients is also incorrect. All bass is not sine waves. All musical instruments produce complex wave forms, espcially plucked string instruments and reed instruments including pedal reed pipes in organs. This is why they sound sharper or more solid than flue pipes of the same pitch. True there is more upper harmonic content to enhance this, but the clapping action of the reed fed by a constant wind supply produces a sudden compression stroke with an more elongated rarefaction stroke than a sinusoidal flue pipe. This refutes the notion that a subwoofer producing 20Hz would never be called upon to have a rise time of less than 1/80th of a second by any musical instrument at that frequency(20cycles per second, four wave segments per sine wave). And no, we are not talking about synthesizers, but real acoustical instruments. In the case of a plucked string, the initial rise is also abrupt but gravitates back toward a sine wave as the string is allowed to vibrate freely.
Believe me, I don't oppose EQ but it is not a substitute for proper physical setup of a system. Electronic manipulation of the signal has no effect of the material relationship between a speaker and its environment. In fact I'll bet if you combined my ability to set up a system physically with your skill for EQ-ing out what's left when I'm done, we could get REALLY good results.
I'm sure you are confident in your thinking, but my points about placement and precision therein is not based on conjecture but experience across a wide sample of people, most of whom didn't think it was possible to hear either at the outset, almost all of whom got it."1" makes no difference with 100Hz. (11 foot wavelength) or lower frequencies except in your overactive imagination."
Sorry, low frequencies reflect like all frequencies, even thought ey travel in all directions. Change the point of origin and you change all of the ensuing reflections, no matter how long the path is, and the lower the frequency, the more profound the change is, which is the whole reason big speakers with low bass are harder to deal with in real rooms and the whole reason you yourself feel the need to use EQ.
Allan
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Follow Ups
- missing the point - 20Hz 12:13:21 12/14/06 (2)
- No point. Bass is not precise in small rooms. Standing waves are in same position regardless of speaker position - Richard BassNut Greene 08:57:29 12/15/06 (1)
- sorry, not what I meant - 20Hz 13:54:40 12/15/06 (0)
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