In Reply to: I have to think this through; won't have time until late this afternoon posted by Commuteman on August 26, 2003 at 12:56:49:
""What are we calculating wrong?? Check mine, I'll check yours""..JohnI made an erroneous assumptions.
First, that the energy loss due to peltier effect would only occur on the leading edge of the sine wave..
While the heat gradient front is still travelling away from the junction, saturation has not occured..That will happen only when the heat capacity of the local area has been "filled", so to speak. The thermocouples that are small enough for bee use could be considered to test that part at 10 to 100 hz frequencies. So, without saturation, the peltier effect will still apply to the trailing edge of the waveform. That will fall apart most likely at or near the zero crossing, where the current slew rate is the greatest (the current travels too fast for the thermal to follow). Only for the high slew rate end of sine pulse signal portion can seebeck happen.
So, that would mean that the bulk of the dissipation is going to be a function of current only. And that will occur at the fundamental frequency..It may be that the seebeck return energy is the actual distortion mechanism, as it can only occur near the zero crossings.
Does a small pulse train of return energy occuring just before zero crossing match in any way the spectra that is being observed by JC?
Can the drive signal be modified so that the trailing edge is faster, thereby stopping peltier during the drop, and forcing more seebeck to be measured?
(That is why I chose the IA approach rather than the typical 1700B approach...I will be able to handle non sine waveforms, relying instead on the IA CMMR to pull the drive out.)
By looking at the whole loop: 600 ohms in series with a current dependent dissipation:
The power delivered to the load is V^2 / R.
The current in the loop is V/R, therefore the peltier diss goes as V.
As the signal increases, the ratio of loss to signal goes as V / V^2, or 1 / V.
Meaning, as the signal voltage increases, the distortion level goes down.
Does a 1 / V relationship match the way the distortion being measured drops down? As I recall, JC said it did go down as he increased the signal, but did not specify the mathematical relationship.
Cheers, John
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Follow Ups
- AHA.. - jneutron 07:24:17 08/27/03 (55)
- And it just dawned on me.. - jneutron 07:49:41 08/27/03 (54)
- Rethinking this whole thing - Commuteman 09:12:55 08/27/03 (53)
- Hmmm. - jneutron 10:19:56 08/27/03 (52)
- So let's double check this..... - Commuteman 13:33:18 08/27/03 (50)
- Re: So let's double check this..... - jneutron 14:06:04 08/27/03 (49)
- that's why it seems to be disappearing into the noise.. - Commuteman 21:42:35 08/27/03 (48)
- Re: that's why it seems to be disappearing into the noise.. - jneutron 04:11:17 08/28/03 (47)
- I'm not sure I missed the point... - Commuteman 17:25:28 08/28/03 (46)
- calcs. - jneutron 04:09:38 08/29/03 (0)
- Re: I'm not sure I missed the point... - jneutron 18:43:57 08/28/03 (44)
- It goes to the other junction - Commuteman 08:46:25 08/29/03 (43)
- Re: It goes to the other junction - jneutron 08:58:31 08/29/03 (42)
- Meanwhile, back in the original discussion...... - Commuteman 13:15:41 09/03/03 (9)
- definitely.. - jneutron 14:14:47 09/03/03 (8)
- "sycophant"... - slope 12:33:44 09/04/03 (1)
- thanks..nt - jneutron 13:55:50 09/04/03 (0)
- Are they both consuming energy? - Commuteman 21:25:55 09/03/03 (5)
- Re: Are they both consuming energy? - jneutron 06:44:47 09/04/03 (4)
- Not so fast buddy..... - Commuteman 15:44:25 09/04/03 (3)
- Re: Not so fast buddy..... - jneutron 05:59:31 09/05/03 (2)
- I'm glad I'm not lifting that sheetrock, although we do need to do that kitchen... - Commuteman 09:39:05 09/05/03 (1)
- I couldn't afford the money I'd want to charge to do this stuff. - jneutron 10:18:06 09/05/03 (0)
- Re: It goes to the other junction - john curl 17:15:57 08/29/03 (31)
- Is that all you can add? Oh sure? - jneutron 17:12:10 08/31/03 (30)
- What is your problem? - Charles Hansen 19:57:17 08/31/03 (29)
- That "cheerleaders without facts" post here" - jneutron 14:09:24 09/01/03 (28)
- Wow, not only are you impolite... - Charles Hansen 14:35:13 09/01/03 (27)
- Wow...technical dialogue for a change.. - jneutron 14:53:49 09/02/03 (26)
- Oh, I forgot to add - jneutron 15:29:03 09/02/03 (0)
- I'm now placing you... - Charles Hansen 15:20:19 09/02/03 (24)
- Weak>> - robotk 04:26:39 09/03/03 (1)
- Re: Weak>> - jneutron 05:34:04 09/03/03 (0)
- Relax will ya. - Hafdef 17:53:19 09/02/03 (0)
- BFD....Personally, I think you're full of hot ayre.... - slope 15:56:02 09/02/03 (3)
- What is BFD?? - jneutron 05:31:50 09/03/03 (2)
- Re: What is BFD?? - LarryR 06:10:54 09/03/03 (1)
- Thanks Larry - jneutron 06:26:31 09/03/03 (0)
- Damn...off by about two minutes.. - jneutron 15:32:32 09/02/03 (16)
- Re: Damn...off by about two minutes.. - jon_banquer@yahoo.com 00:15:05 09/03/03 (1)
- Hi jonB - jneutron 05:53:22 09/03/03 (0)
- Re: Damn...off by about two minutes.. - john curl 00:13:38 09/03/03 (13)
- Oh Geeze, words from the cheap seats.. - jneutron 05:50:10 09/03/03 (12)
- Why do you even bother anymore? - kuribo 10:29:17 09/03/03 (10)
- How do you judge? - Commuteman 13:41:56 09/03/03 (6)
- Hmmm. - jneutron 14:58:45 09/03/03 (5)
- I'll go look for the posts, but am I wrong? - Commuteman 21:42:04 09/03/03 (4)
- btw... - jneutron 10:02:11 09/04/03 (2)
- Now that IS a pointless exercise....NT - Commuteman 10:18:09 09/04/03 (1)
- Perhaps.. - jneutron 11:09:34 09/04/03 (0)
- Re: I'll go look for the posts, but am I wrong? - jneutron 07:10:52 09/04/03 (0)
- Hi Kuribo - jneutron 11:44:52 09/03/03 (2)
- Re: Hi Kuribo - john curl 14:12:08 09/03/03 (1)
- Re: Hi Kuribo - jneutron 14:51:10 09/03/03 (0)
- Yah, I know...it's gnat, not knat...Doh!nt - jneutron 06:30:02 09/03/03 (0)
- double hmmmm. - jneutron 10:36:37 08/27/03 (0)