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In Reply to: RE: Quick question, where do you stand on wire and cable directionality? posted by geoffkait on November 05, 2022 at 05:19:24
Well assuming the speaker and amplifier are repetitively close so far as the speed of propagation in the cable (which is somewhat less than the speed of light) , the currents that flow in the two paths are always equal in magnitude but opposite in polarity. So in the sense of the cable, there is no direction.
And then there is what happens when you terminate a cable, copper oxide for example can be sort of a semi-conductor like a weak diode and can pass current one direction differently than the other direction. This is a metallic junction issue and not inherent in the cable.
The solution has generally been using a terminal strip with screws you tighten, which wipes off the oxide making a bare metal to bare metal contact. Even the old time RCA connectors were designed to scrape the oxide off and make good contact when you insert them.
That same oxide effect (and all the others) are more important higher in frequency than audio and is why many RF connectors are silver plated and a metal with less resistance than copper and who's oxides are not semi conductors.
So, like all the other stuff, it depends how much it effects the signal compared to un-transmogrified
Follow Ups:
It can't be the termination that is responsible for the directionality. The same argument can be applied here to cable connectors as for the argument that fuses are directional because of some asymmetry or defect in one fuse holder end. Directionality in wire is *repeatable* (and predictable) and *transferrable* whereas directionality of fuse holders and cable terminations, if any, is not. It would be random, no?
Of course if both terminations of the cable were equality "problematic" the cable should sound the same either way. But the cable in that particular won't sound the same due to wire directionality. I'm also dismissing shielding as the prime suspect since I'm referring to the wire itself being directional. Shielding just adds another layer of variables to the equation.
Hi
You excluded an effect a shield (which end is connected if not a complete circuit) may have on a high impedance (signal) cable so I would assume your talking about a speaker cable?
I can't think of anything that would make the cable itself have preferred direction where an alteration of the signal takes place differently if driven from the opposite ends. When you are concerned with frequencies many octaves above 20KHz, all the wires properties become important or governing higher yet in frequency. I have not heard of any reference to preferred direction in an RF cable.
So that brings up the experimental process. A RULE is do not change more than one thing when you compare A to B. You are sure you hear a difference but the issue is "was the difference because of the wire?"
"Was the difference because of 4 different / new electrical connections?"
Since what you "hear" is partly what you see and already know, we all feel our hearing is pretty good yet like vision, color perception and our ears frequency response, we are all pretty different and we know nothing else, no other frame of reference..
Worse, comparing two amplifiers or two signal paths where one can switch quickly, you find our acoustic memory is quite short, after that we have a fading memory of what we think it was.
At the beginning of the company where i work now, we /I wasn't sure that making a horn speaker that radiated like a single driver was worth the hassle. Also how to identify problems when there was nothing in a measurement that pointed a direction.
This was using an olden days test for recording tape and electronics called a generation loss test. You play music of your choice through a speaker and record it with a measurement mic, then play that back through the speaker and record it again. Each time, the flaws that stop it from being faithful to the signal are exaggerated. Most loudspeaker are UN-listenable by 2 generations some on the first pass.
This did not tell you what to fix in the design process but it sure made it stand out so you knew were it was.
Anyway, this might be a way to figure out what the directional effect is.
If you have access to a (flat) measurement mic and decent usb interface you can make this kind of recording in your room, just put the mic close to the speaker to minimize the room contribution. Then compare the effect of the cable going one way, then the other and what the differences are are greatly exaggerated after a couple generations.
Tom Danley
I purposefully did not include shields in my argument. Shielding is a separate issue. I'm not including connectors, termination types or fuse holders. Those variables only add to the confusion. The simplest way to see what I'm referring to is reverse orientation of a fuse or speaker unshielded cables. You should be able to hear the difference immediately. The directionality in wire apparently results from the deliberate distortion of the crystal grain structure during manufacture, wire drawn through die. The wire is compressed going through the die forcing the metal crystal structure to bend backwards in the opposite direction from the direction of the drawing, like porcupine quills. It's this *physical asymmetry* of the wire (all wire) that produces the "directionality."
Edits: 11/07/22 11/07/22 11/07/22 11/07/22 11/07/22
Late to the conversation, sorry for intruding, but consider annealing.
Copper wire starts life as 1000+ pound wire bars that are passed (essentially, extruded) through stages of hot rolling and 'roughing' to a moderate (~10 mm) diameter rod. So it's reasonable to think there might be longitudinal structure, but directionality seems unlikely since the mill passes alternate direction.
The rod is pickled and shaved to remove surface impurities and inclusions, then drawn (stretched, not compressed) into wire in multiple stages. Because copper work-hardens, it is annealed several times through the drawing process before it reach the desired gauge.
At that point, if the copper is to be used for electrical wire, it is finally annealed to a "dead soft" state. Could 'directionality' even exist in that state?
Sorry for my ignorance, but are there readily measurable characteristic changes?
-Paul
--> "The directionality in wire apparently results from the deliberate distortion of the crystal grain structure during manufacture, wire drawn through die. The wire is compressed going through the die forcing the metal crystal structure to bend backwards in the opposite direction from the direction of the drawing, like porcupine quills. It's this *physical asymmetry* of the wire (all wire) that produces the "directionality." <--
I've never seen hookup wire that's labelled for directionality. So in a point to point wired amp or preamp wouldn't it seem to be a pretty safe bet that at least half the wire is installed backwards?
What about traces on a circuit board? If they are not drawn through a die I suppose that would mean that they are non-directional. Would you then expect that gear constructed using circuit boards would consistently sound superior to anything wired point to point if the same circuit and parts were used?
What about the wire inside a speaker cabinet? Or the wire in a speaker's voice coil? Or, for that matter, the wire inside a power or output transformer?
If my system doesn't sound quite right should I complain to the power company and suggest that some of their lines are installed in the wrong direction? What about your house wiring? Have you checked it?
What would it take to check to make sure that the "porcupine quills" were not facing the wrong direction? An electron microscope?
Given all the places where a large percentage of the existing wire is likely installed backwards, how much of this handicap can be overcome simply by installing the speaker wire correctly?
Hookup wire is not labeled for directionality but it is directional. Even stranded wire, each strand is directional, so you better have them all lined up right.Most cables, even high end cables, are not labeled for directionality, most fuses are not labeled for directionality but they are all directional. Some cables like AudioQuest and AntiCables are labeled with arrows. These cables must be "controlled for directionality" during manufacture.
The wire in transformers, internal speaker wire, internal wiring of all electronics, the wire in capacitors, even hookup wire - they're all directional.
Power cords? Yup, they're directional, even the stranded ones which are most. Also HDMI cables. House wiring too. All wire is directional for the reason I already explained. Obviously I'm referring to wires drawn through a die, not cast wires, if there is such a thing, or copper traces.
Pop quiz: Is the proper direction of both wires in the cable the same or opposite?
Edits: 11/09/22 11/09/22
"The wire in transformers, internal speaker wire, internal wiring of all electronics, the wire in capacitors, even hookup wire - they're all directional. "
The issue is, is that a perception only, or is there an actual alteration in the signal that effects / changes what the loudspeaker does. You would not or could not answer that question earlier.
If it mattered in the electrical domain, the folks who design / make transformers, maintain our electrical grid or work with RF signals where everything matters much more, would be aware of those special directional properties and design accordingly yet this appears to be exclusively a "high end hifi cable" only phenomena with no electrical alteration in the signal. The skeptic would say if it doesn't alter the signal going to the speaker, then the answer is elsewhere.
Exceptional claims require exceptional proof, you are the one making claims of an effect not observed in other areas of electrical engineering and so it would be natural to be skeptical.
Yes, the signal is different, audibly different wrt the cables' direction. By the way, I actually answered that question already, at least once. The signal in the cables is different; therefore, the acoustic waveform generated by the speakers is also different. That's why directionality is audible. Shall I draw you a picture? The reason why the signal is different is because the cables aren't physically symmetrical as I've said a number of times. Therefore the electrons flow different depending on direction. So it actually makes sense the signal would be different if the number of moving charges is different, right?I don't have to prove my claim. You've been misinformed. That's the oldest pseudo-skeptic argument in the book. If you want to find out the truth you have to do it yourself or hire an independent tester.
Edits: 11/11/22 11/11/22 11/11/22 11/11/22
"Yes, the signal is different, audibly different wrt the cables' direction. By the way, I actually answered that question already, at least once. The signal in the cables is different; therefore, the acoustic waveform generated by the speakers is also different. That's why directionality is audible. Shall I draw you a picture? "
Nope, an actual change in the signal or in a speakers response i can deal with / measure, that's my job.
"Yes, the signal is different, audibly different wrt the cables' direction."
geoffkait made a claim but then says he doesn't have to prove it. It is true no one can make him establish it, but he still has the burden of proof. He evidently has no intention of meeting it.
For practical purposes, I ignore the issue for audio cables direction, since no one seems to have established that makes an audible difference. If geoffkait or someone else wants to establish that changing the direction of the cables makes an audible difference, more power to them. But I don't see a reason to buy fancy wire except for show.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
Prove me wrong. There is no burden of proof on me. Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger. I did not create reality. My job is to reveal reality. Break free from your reality tunnel. See the world as it is not as you believe it is.You actually don't want me to prove anything. What you're really looking for is some way to independently verify and validate wire directionality, isn't it?
Edits: 11/23/22
It's a matter of perspective, a story about the philosopher Wittgenstein and a student illustrates the situation.
The two were watching the sunrise and the student posed how stupid they were in the past when they thought the sun went around the earth.
After a short silence Wittgenstein said Yes...but what would it look like if the sun did go around the earth?
His point being it would look the same and the only difference is now "we know" what really happens.
Speaker cables all have (in decreasing order of effect) a series R, a series L and a parallel C, dielectric absorption, all of which can be measured.
Modern passive crossover design involves having the driver impedance curve and frequency response to work with, one can add in what ever cable properties you with.
One can (and i have) used a Null bridge to "listen to" the signal difference from one end to the other and in a different area designed a transformers and 1 turn coil, where one could pass 300Amps at 12 MHz for levitating glass.
The point is, your experiences have lead you to conclude something anomalous based on my experience working with the details, we come from different perspectives.
Don't get me wrong, there ARE plenty of things not understood in audio but for me the magic and discovery are in what properties makes loudspeakers disappear in a phantom stereo image and what things make them stand out as obvious sources.
No, it's not at all like that. It's just a reality you are just being stubborn about accepting. It's the same thing as a lot of preposterous sounding ideas in this audio hobby. Since you have no experience in directionality you can hardly make an argument based on experience. A real skeptic, a real scientist, would roll up his sleeves and try to see what this directionality business is all about.While you may attempt to mystify it, directionality is explainable, predictable, audible, repeatable and transferrable. In other words it's scientific.
This audio hobby has a colorful history of things that have confounded audiophiles ever since audio feet and fancy cables reared their heads - CD treatments, cryogenic treatment of cables, electronics, tubes, CDs, LPs. Also fancy fuses, micro-arcing, contact enhancers, silver rainbow foil, cream electret, Mpingo discs, Schumann frequency generator, demagnetizing CDs, colorizing CDs, the Tice Clock, the Clever little clock (battery powered), tube dampers, tiny little bowl acoustic resonators.
Edits: 11/23/22 11/23/22 11/23/22 11/24/22
"No, it's not at all like that. It's just a reality you are just being stubborn about accepting." " A real skeptic, a real scientist, would roll up his sleeves and try to see what this directionality business is all about."
That encapsulates the error in your assumption.
You assume i have not looked at this, have not done null tests with speaker cables with music, have not had to make things work regardless of the operators mindset.
The last sentence may apply here as there is a whole category of "audio accessories" which the purchasers say have a positive effect and yet the same devices are often inaudible when the listener doesn't also know which cable or knob or what ever change has been made (aka blind).
These things tend to be harmless functionally speaking but have an exotic story, cost more than one would expect and reminds me of go-fast aftermarket car parts from a 1970's catalogue. Yes a chrome air filter cover is smoother aerodynamically but it doesn't actually increase HP.
For sure, if you make a change that people without prior knowledge identify above the "odds" as better then you have an improvement, if that impression holds with different kinds of music and tastes, that is a real improvement.
Now,none of this really matters in the home exactly what improves the listening experience as BOTH what enters your two ear holes AND what you know AND see is what makes up our conscious "3D hearing experience".
It matters most if your designing speakers that others will use where they don't know what was involved and you didn't know what type of music they will play.
Happy Thanksgiving
Enjoy a unique and leisurely Utube after dinner travel video with "Hobo Shoestring"
"Now,none of this really matters in the home exactly what improves the listening experience as BOTH what enters your two ear holes AND what you know AND see is what makes up our conscious "3D hearing experience". "
I have basically argued that for years. The problem is that I don't take the word of geoffkait and other audiophiles for it that cable direction and lots of other unproven tweaks make an audible difference. But my advice is to get what you like.
But they want to spend a lot of money and trouble on unproven tweaks, it's their time and money. But that doesn't seem to be good enough for geoffkait and some others. I still buy what I like.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
It's what you choose to believe and it makes you feel good. That's what all the pseudo scientists say.
I'm sure you haven't looked at this, not in a serious way. Otherwise, we'd agree. Everyone in the world who's looked at this directionality thing *seriously* is in agreement - all except you and some other naysayers. You/they have strong maybe too strong belief in science, strong belief in controlled blind testing, strong aversion to anything that remotely looks like snake oil. Blinded by science. I have more science and testing than you, I hope I can be so bold to say that. All or most of 100,000 or whatever number of customers who bought fancy audiophile fuses of various brands found out about directionality. Think of directionality like black holes, you can't see them directly, only indirectly.
Edits: 11/24/22 11/24/22 11/24/22 11/24/22 11/24/22 11/24/22 11/24/22 11/24/22 11/24/22 11/24/22 11/24/22 11/24/22 11/24/22 11/24/22 11/24/22 11/25/22 11/25/22 11/25/22
~!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
he usually finds reasons to justify his behavior. His perfectionism is an indicator of his lack of self-awareness
Protecting other peanuts. Lol
Better go back to war college.
Sheesh, you are unable to grasp the impact of social engineering by that 0ne statement our US Army war college stated? Start by reading Edward Bernays... and relieve yourself of some ignorance, Geoff.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
Nt
Hi
I would offer a couple comments on your last post;
"I'm sure you haven't looked at this, not in a serious way.
Otherwise, we'd agree. Everyone in the world who's looked at this directionality thing *seriously* is in agreement "
Interesting proposition, the logical counterpart of the old saying "when everyone agrees, no one is thinking very deeply".
"You/they have strong maybe too strong belief in science, strong belief in controlled blind testing, strong aversion to anything that remotely looks like snake oil."
I have watched the hifi area go from a scientific endeavor at the hands of folks like Dick Heyser, into a market where there are many examples of things that are psychological only in effect and so are undetectable in blind testing. The "snake oil" products have made "hifi" an area too many discredit.
The blizzard of "marketing the idea of science and progress" is how people can be amazed by ancient loudspeakers and amplifiers that can still sound remarkably good, actual improvements (which are widely heard in a blind test) are slow and few.
"I have more science and testing than you, I hope I can be so bold to say that."
Well obviously you are so bold, but based on what you have said here, i would bet that's also not true .
It always comes down to your arguments, it must be psychological, it disobeys science, it can't be detected in a blind test. All of these arguments are the stick in trade of the earnest pseudo skeptic. I'm afraid as much as I've enjoyed our discussion this particular thread can serve no purpose any more. Science used embrace curiosity and investigation but now it's become like religion, narcissistic and unwilling to change.
"It always comes down to your arguments, it must be psychological, it disobeys science, it can't be detected in a blind test. "
Your ability to dance around the fact that what one hears is partly what you know and see is remarkable, have you ever thought about why medical hearing tests never include a little red light to tell you when the tone is present or why the person running the test can't give you clues? This only tests your ability to detect the sound yes or no, not what you know or think or see. The ONLY way to determine exactly what you hear is when you remove all the "non-auditory" information.
While you may think of blind testing akin to a gruesome non-reversible medical procedure, it simple means what you see and know tells you nothing about which of two cases you are hearing.
The fact that when you spend money on an aftermarket trinket, that this in it self is a powerful motivator to hear an improvement IS psychological , have you ever wondered why often what was a dramatic improvement with a new cable, diminishes to slight or undetectable when tested blind?
That last part is where i became interested, i have built loudspeakers my whole life (well i made the first cabinet in 7th grade) and have a company with my name on it now. While the easiest place to grow with a new technology was was in commercial sound where large scale sound is the most difficult, my interest has been hifi since i heard sound coming from a heathkit speaker at my grampa's.
I pressed you for details because the psychology is powerful, if you spent a lot of time or money on building new speakers, you are incredibly inclined to hear the good in it.....and ignore the bad, maybe even shape your choice of music around what sounded good.
All that is fine if they are your speakers but when you have to design speakers for other peoples choice of music and situations, one has to focus on the things that are universal and audible as an improvement in a blind test or side by side with other choices.
You said "Science used embrace curiosity and investigation", someone on line made a Wiki entry for me which is reasonably accurate, does what you said describe what i do as an inventor?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Danley
Any test including a carefully controlled blind test can have problems, including undetected ones. There are lots of reasons why a test can have negative results, even when the tester is very thorough and has lots of experience. But what does have meaning are the cumulative results of many tests in many different systems by different listeners.
No need to blow your own horn here, we appreciate what an Appeal to Authority is. If credentials or experience were capable of winning arguments then any yutz on the street could simply claim, "I have 40 years of experience in this hobby therefore I must be right." That pretty well sums up your arguments in the present discussion.
"No need to blow your own horn here, we appreciate what an Appeal to Authority is"
The reason i mentioned my background at the end of the conversation rather then the beginning was to illustrate that while i began as a DIY'r, most of my life turned into doing R&D in areas where there were no solutions and my job some of the time was developing new things and new types of transducers, for example these;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=669AcEBpdsY
"Any test including a carefully controlled blind test can have problems, including undetected ones. There are lots of reasons why a test can have negative results, even when the tester is very thorough and has lots of experience."
Absolutely true, just like medical or other tests, our difference seems to be that you discount what measurements and controlled testing CAN tell you.
You seem to totally gloss over the FACT that what we perceive is partly what we know, see and believe as well as the sound going into the holes on the sides of your head and are unaware of (or is it depend on?) the power of placebo even in audio.
Do you actually design anything technical or just market stuff or do you want to end this here?
We've already talked about this education and experience obsession of yours a couple of times. Apparently you have run completely out of ammo. If you can't come up with any evidence to support your position I hereby declare myself the winner. You cannot win the argument by constantly challenging my experience and education. Which, as it happens, I'm quite confident is superior to yours.
Beyond using #12 gauge wires, speaker wires makes no difference. RCA high impedance wires do make a slight difference. I use Bluejeans low capacitance.
I'm way ahead of you. You have drawn the wrong conclusions. Better luck in the future.
Speaker wires are low impedance, higher voltage and short in length as compared to phono wires. I hear a minor difference in phono wires and not sure if the capacitance plays a larger factor. As for speaker wires of about 14ga in pure copper, I think the placebo effect is larger than the different speaker cables true sound effect.
Try reversing the direction of speaker cables sometime. That should be pretty obvious.Limitations in any audio system can sometimes limit that system's ability to reveal what's going on with cables. Negative results can be misleading. Testing for differences in audio are not at all like taste tests or pharmaceutical tests in that there is an entire system in audio tests between the thing being tested and the listener. A lot of things can go wrong. In audio tests it's probably never placebo, always an error in the system somewhere.
Edits: 01/12/23
"Science used embrace curiosity and investigation but now it's become like religion, narcissistic and unwilling to change."
Nobody is preventing you from being curious and investigating.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
Very funny, but you must be looking in the mirror, Mr. pseudo scientist.
IMO speakers are such low impedance and runs are short the wire is not critical. #14 or #12 gauge should perform fine with copper conductor wire. I use zip cord.
That's not the issue here on this thread.Type of wire, gauge of wire, quality of wire, cost of wire are separate issues from the subject of this thread. Directionality is independent of those other factors. Now the metal lead as a conductor material might be interesting since it's not directional.
Edits: 11/28/22
Being not directional wouldn't it always be 1/2 wrong?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Nt
Edits: 12/19/22
The most used argument used by skeptics and pseudo skeptics is if the fuse is in an AC circuit how can it be directional since the signal goes both ways? Same logic applies to cables and power cords since they're in AC circuits, too.
Edits: 11/13/22
I asked you if the directionality you hear was a result of a change in what's arriving at the loudspeaker terminals.
I asked because part of our hearing is also what we see and know and so, while building a loudspeaker or amplifier with exotic hifi parts those WILL give the builder a better listening impression when finished (even for me) and for the most part, those kinds of improvements won't be measured, noticed or heard by a someone who didn't know of those mods and so has to be told of them first.
Scoff at the idea of blind testing if you will but if you can't hear the difference between two things like speaker cables switching back and forth without knowing which was which , how much of that impression is actually based on hearing?
There are a number of examples like the "McGurke effect" which show for instance your brain will choose what you see over what you actually hear, even when you know what's happening (google it and try)..
The problem is designing a speaker product others will use, there are so many actual acoustic and electronic things actually going on and your brain seeks information and rejects noise, so that loudspeaker development by ear only reaches a point where changes make some recordings better and others worse.
It is difficult to make a speaker that is neutral, harder yet so that it disappears into the phantom image and not be part of the image..
So let me help you out, for a moment pretend you had worked in electronics and sound for the last 40+ years, building measuring and researching new things and were responsible for about 30 patents.
And that you had an open enough mind enough to figure out how to levitate and melt glass with magnetic fields, how to levitate an object with sound at 1600 degrees C, designed the transducers and circuitry to do all that and built several experiments that flew on sounding rockets and the space shuttle.
Further pretend you had been fascinated with "how things work" and especially loudspeakers since childhood and had been building both drivers and speaker cabinets since 8th grade.
Perhaps you might ask questions like i did should someone tell you there is a whole world of audible electrical phenomena that was not observed in any other field outside high end hifi.
While i never observed anything like directionality in cables (outside of the cable factors i outlined) , i have observed a connection between what can be seen in some kinds of measurements and what random strangers hear.
I have observed objectively that when you make a generation loss recording with loudspeakers, that the more generations a loudspeaker or electronics can reproduce and still be listenable, the better most people will think it sounds with any kind of music and the better demonstrations go.
To not be fooled by expectation bias, one needs both subjective and objective observation and knowledge to have a stool to design from. Clearly you have an unusually strong belief, what is your objective background in this area ?
You wrote,"To not be fooled by expectation bias, one needs both subjective and objective observation and knowledge to have a stool to design from. Clearly you have an unusually strong belief, what is your objective background in this area ?"
You make it sound like a religious argument, when it's actually a scientific argument. You haven't found anything to support the idea of cable directionality. You have mistakenly assumed cable directionality applies to areas other than HiFi. You have assumed you are a real skeptic therefore you must be right. These are all logical fallacy arguments on your part, mostly of the type Appeal to Authority and Appeal to Experience. If all PhDs thought alike then any PhD could say I have a PhD, therefore I win the argument, no? But all PhDs don't think alike.
What is my objective background in this area? Oh, goodie, a battle of the resumes!
Edits: 11/15/22
"You make it sound like a religious argument, when it's actually a scientific argument."
Is it that the "breakthroughs" are so new that credible peer review groups have yet to process this information or is it that there has been plenty of time for that to happen and no credible peer groups seem to be echoing your result?
Surely what applies in hifi would also apply in pro audio and therefore this information, if it really exists, would have importance outside of tweak circles.
"What is my objective background in this area? Oh, goodie, a battle of the resumes!"
Says the guy who immediately resorts to name calling and questioning others degrees. Roll eye emojie here.
"You make it sound like a religious argument, when it's actually a scientific argument."To which you responded,
Is it that the "breakthroughs" are so new that credible peer review groups have yet to process this information or is it that there has been plenty of time for that to happen and no credible peer groups seem to be echoing your result?
> > > > > HiF stuff is not peer reviewed. There is no peer review process for HiFi. Hel-loo! Besides, as I said many times already in this thread, directionality is not a new breakthrough. Directionality has been controlled for high end cables for 25 years. Have you been living in a cave somewhere?
You also wrote,
"Surely what applies in hifi would also apply in pro audio and therefore this information, if it really exists, would have importance outside of tweak circles."
> > > > That's a logical fallacy. I didn't say it was only in tweak circles, I said it was in HiFi circles, I said "directionality" applies to fuses, cables, speaker wiring, transformers. Wire directionality actually applies anywhere there is audio, even pro audio. You can pretend directionality doesn't exist, you can even hold your breath until your face turns blue, it's no skin off my nose.
I wrote, "What is my objective background in this area? Oh, goodie, a battle of the resumes!"
To which you responded,
"Says the guy who immediately resorts to name calling and questioning others degrees. Roll eye emojie here."
> > > > > That's an other logical fallacy since I never resort to name calling unless I'm called names first. That's fair isn't it? I have never questioned anyone's degree. Why would I? I just got though saying in my previous post it's an Appeal to Authority to claim a superior education or background. It doesn't prove anything. You can't win any argument by claiming you have a PhD in electrical engineering.
Edits: 11/15/22 11/15/22
The problem is your claim of it being a scientific argument when there is little/no evidence suggesting it meets the standards. The claim implies the accepted scientific principles are being adhered to: (1) Pose significant questions that can be investigated empirically; (2) Link research to theory; (3) Use methods that permit direct investigation of questions; (4) Provide coherent chain of rigorous reasoning; (5) Replicate and generalize; and (6) Transparency and scholarly debate.
When/where is the evidence any of this research/experiment/debate has occured surrounding cable directionality questions?
Let us know when you've finished your research and report your results. I can hardly wait. It's actually not my job to provide evidence. Keep looking, have you contacted NASA or IEEE? Maybe they can help you.
Edits: 11/16/22
I'm not the one making the claims then calling them scientific.
It's not up to me to prove anything or even to provide evidence. Which I have already, you just refuse to listen. If you're curious and believe in the scientific method, which you probably don't, you investigate the claim yourself. Or you hire an outside independent third party to verify and validate the claims. Is not observation part of the scientific method? I saw an Apple fall from the tree. That sort of thing.Here's a challenge for you. Prove that directionality doesn't exist.
Edits: 11/17/22
Normally, if one proposes something "new to science" it is the duty of those proposing to show proof it exists. As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
That there is a directional effect in speaker cables is such a claim but lacks anything like "engineering proof" that you can point to other than some people say they can hear it.
Some people say a lot of things, here, most likely "if you can't hear it, your system doesn't have enough resolution" or other cop out.
Meanwhile the fact it is only folks associated with the audio aftermarket biz that seem to promote this idea, that there is no attempt to show and engineering explanation, leaves many rightfully skeptical and some going to great lengths to promote it.
I'm not proposing something new to science, as you say. Whatever gave you that idea? Do you consider yourself informed of everything in science, is the real question. I'm beginning to think so.I am under no obligation to present engineering proof, as you say, or proof of any kind or even evidence. This is not a peer review forum, in case you haven't heard.
By the way, I never said directionality is real because some people claim to hear it. Why do you insist on putting words in my mouth? (You are very adept at using pseudo skeptic arguments.)
Because systems can sometimes have errors and peoples' listening skills are often unreliable, negative results of a test for directionality are meaningless. Even if the test is a controlled blind test. Meaningful results start to emerge after many tests on many systems with many test subjects. Repeatability and transferability are the key.
You keep trying to argue that only niche audiophiles are concerned about directionality. That's true but it doesn't mean it's not real. You can follow that logic, right? That's another pseudo skeptic argument.
Edits: 11/17/22 11/17/22
"Meaningful results start to emerge after many tests on many systems with many test subjects. Repeatability and transferability are the key."
And you have that data? Can you share it?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
It's not up to me to provide any data. If you had read more carefully you'd have noticed I said tests by many people on many systems. I.e., independent testing. You probably aren't familiar with IV&V, I bet.
Edits: 12/19/22
"Because systems can sometimes have errors and peoples' listening skills are often unreliable, negative results of a test for directionality are meaningless."
It is the exact same reason to be skeptical of positive results, or if you really believe in cable directionality, the ability of a manufacturer to deliver the products to the customer consistently without any case of somehow confusing the customer into installing them backwards.... mislabelled cable direction indicator per manufacturing defect as an example.
"Meaningful results start to emerge after many tests on many systems with many test subjects. Repeatability and transferability are the key."
There seems to be some logical flaw in the following line of reasoning: "listening skills are often unreliable", and yet the proposed method of detecting the effect, ie (paraphrasing) "just listen myself and see if I like one direction better than the other".
There are at least two conductors per interconnect per channel. However the only thing most of us would consider practical is multistrand not solid core. That is a ton of book keeping just to get one cable built correctly with out any mistakes. It's hard to imagine how all this overhead wouldn't be prohibitively expensive for a boutique audiophile manufacturer to control. And really begs the question why bother doing the listening test on any old manufacturers multistrand cables with presumably random distributions of strands within the multistrand bundles pointing in one direction or the other.
No, positive results are not the same as negative results. Negative results from a single test have no meaning. That's because too many things can and do go wrong with tests. But positive results are meaningful because they were positive *in spite of* the many possible pitfalls.What are those pitfalls, you ask. Fair enough, here is a short list,
1. Error(s) in the test system, including but not limited to, speakers wired out of phase, cabling connected out of phase, absolute polarity of system inverted, cables or electronics not broken in sufficiently. These error would potentially mask differences in sound.
2. Test system lacks adequate resolution for task at hand, making the sound differences impossible to detect.
3. Listener not sufficiently skilled at detecting differences in sound.
4. Listener doesn't know what differences in the sound to look for. What difference in sound does directionality produce?
5. Test procedures not followed.
6. Listener might be biased against the test item(s). He could be strongly anti tweak and nit admit to any Sonic differences if there are any.
One person's listening skill might not be up to the level of someone else's. If you don't know what directionality sounds like you might not hear it the first time around. That's what I meant by listener skill being unreliable. You can't drag some guy in off the street and expect him to hear directionality.
It's not difficult to control any wire or cable for directionality. You must "control" the wire as soon as it comes off the spool, every length of wire after that is in the direction. AudioQuest (and others) has been doing this for many years uh, 25, so obviously it's not prohibitively expensive, as you say.
For fuses, the wire doesn't have to be controlled during manufacture since it's easy to reverse the fuse in its holder and decide which way sounds best.
Finally, in an AC circuit there are two wires, one carries the electrical signal in one direction while the electrical signal travel in the opposite direction at the same time. The signals alternate direction on each wire according to the instantaneous audio frequency.
Edits: 11/19/22 11/20/22 11/20/22
Directionality: It's All About Noise
07.01.16
If you've ever wondered about the arrows on AudioQuest cables, read any of our educational materials, or merely followed any of the online chatter regarding our products, perhaps you've wondered what this "directionality" thing is all about.
There is the widely accepted version of directionality: In most audio-grade shielded interconnects, as compared to standard coax, negative has its own internal conductor and the metal shield is attached to ground at only one end, thus defining the cable's directionality. Many cable manufacturers end their exploration of directionality there, going only as far as to mark their cables for directionality based on the relationship of shield to ground, but altogether neglecting conductor directionality. Because we believe in directing noise to where it can do the least harm, we, too, believe in the advantages of controlling for the attachment of the shield. In fact, long before we controlled for conductor directionality, AudioQuest interconnects were also controlled for direction based on the relationship of shield to ground.
Over the years, our understanding of conductor directionality and its effect on audio performance has steadily evolved, growing stronger and more complete. While we've always been keenly aware that directionality plays a significant role in the overall sound of any hi-fi system, we couldn't completely explain it. This was okay: We trust our own ears and encourage listeners to do the same. The test is easy enough: Simply listen, then reverse the direction of the cable, and listen again.
I think your confusing what i was questioning with someone else i guess, i was very specific speaker cables and NOT small signal cables.
Rarely does one find an engineering approach where being skeptical is a bad thing, i find this discussion curious.
"Over the years, our understanding of conductor directionality and its effect on audio performance has steadily evolved, growing stronger and more complete."
Yes i get that impression from you and that there is a collective "our" somewhere too, it's just normally there is something in the objective world that indicates or suggests a mechanism for an actual change.
What does it look like when doing a google search on this subject, it would seem the only folks spending money to advertise or write about it are companies associated with hifi aftermarket.
Search any other topic about electronics engineering like skin effect or propagation velocity you you have many engineering hits.
I've already revealed the mechanism for the change in sound. Must be a mental block. This is what is commonly referred to as the backfire effect. When confronted with evidence to the contrary of strongly held beliefs or opinions a person clutches those beliefs even more tightly. We even have a name for it.Yes, there's a collective out there. It's a collective of advanced audiophiles, like the 140,000 who have bought directional fuses. Get on board the directionality train, toot, toot!
I did not say being skeptical is a bad thing, please don't put words in my mouth. That's another logical fallacy strike for you. What I'm saying is being falsely skeptical is bad, pretending to be scientifically skeptical but not really willing to do the leg work. We call them pseudo skeptics.
You wrote,
"What does it look like when doing a google search on this subject, it would seem the only folks spending money to advertise or write about it are companies associated with hifi aftermarket."
That's so funny you should say that because this entire discussion has been about directionality of cables and wire in audio systems. The concept doesn't exist outside of HiFi. Directionality is a HiFi word. Hel-loo!
Tip: If you use the search engine for Propeller Head Plaza to search for the word "directionality" you will get a boatload of results going as far back as 2002.
Edits: 11/14/22 11/14/22 11/14/22 11/14/22 11/14/22
It's not like I'm saying I've seen flying saucers. It's also not like I'm the only one who has heard directionality. AudioQuest identified directionality 25 years ago and developed perhaps the best way to control directionality during cable manufacturing. Don't shoot me I'm just the messenger. A part of why more than 120,000 audiophile fuses have been sold is because the issue of directionality is part of the fuse mystique, so to speak. Even an old stock fuse tgats been in the system for 10 years will sound sound better or worse if you reverse it in the fuse holder. What have you got to lose? I dare you.
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Not too chicken to change
You keep saying nope. That's what pseudo skeptics always say. No, it can't be. No, it can't be measured. No, it disobeys the laws of science. All of the rules of wire and cable directionality can be derived from the mysterious case of the tiny little fuse. A mere 1/2 inch long piece of very thin wire makes an audible difference which way it's inserted into the fuse holder? Doesn't seem possible, does it?
HiFi Tuning in Germany used to have data sheets of fuse measurements on their web site, but the data sheets may have finally been removed, new management, who knows, a more shall we say conservative management. But they were there for many years. What the data sheets showed was the difference in voltage drop across a number of different fuses, including HiFi Tuning, stock fuses, both cryogenically treat and untreated. The fuses were measured in both directions. The results showed there was a slightly lower voltage drop across fuses when they were inserted in the "right direction" - slight but measurable and all fuses exhibited this difference in voltage drop. Stock fuses are directional just like audiophile fuses.
So, now for the $64,000 question, if fuses are directional doesn't that mean all wire is directional? And if all wire is directional shouldn't designers of electronics and cables and fuses control the directionality of EVERYTHING? Hel-loo people! Is anybody listening? I mean unless everybody wants to rest on his laurels and is happy with the status quo.
Hi
If one cable direction is audible compared to the other direction then one would have to assume that "the signal" at the amplifier end is not the same as what arrives at the speaker end, would you agree?
Since cables are a closed system, there is no room noise or microphones needed and the signal travels at nearly light speed, it is easy to compare the signal at each end in real time.
In what way would you guess the electrical signal is altered?
Is this something that can be measured?
I thought we just agreed the audio signal is the alternating movement of the free electrons, I.e., what you call alternating current. Thus, the "audio signal" is the combined wiggling back and forth of the free electrons. The rate of electron wiggling is the instantaneous audio frequency. Each wire contributes 1/2 the audio signal, i.e., 1/2 cycle of the audio waveform. A full cycle makes the speaker diaphragm move out and back one complete cycle. That obviously takes a lot less time than if the signal were moving a light-speed, no? The audio signal in cables is occurring in real time just like the music coming out of the speakers.
Edits: 11/07/22
Maybe we are not communicating, You made the comment that there was a direction to wire and they sound differently connected one way vs the other.
Other than what i described earlier, I don't see a way to have a speaker wire "change" the audio signal in a directional way that one can hear the result in a speaker, and I asked because wanted to see if there was something to it.
Outside of many hits in the "hifi" area i could not find any engineering references to this directional effect in a quick search and had never heard of that working with instrumentation, measurement and RF.
At the same time, it seems unlikely to be an otherwise unmeasured electrical phenomena, unique to home audio conditions and power levels.
So far as half of the signal traveling on each wire, have you ever used an oscilloscope? Think a battery, a light bulb and a pair of wires. Nothing happens until you have a complete circuit where the current flows in equal magnitude in both wires through the light bulb.
Dynamic speakers, woofers etc are a DC motor, the driver BL is how many Newtons of force the Voice coil produces per Amp of current in it, the signal is like the battery is constantly reversing and changing magnitude.
So it kind of has to be one of these two;
So does this audible wire directional effect change the electrical signal going to the speaker in any way?
Or does it make the audible change to the speaker's sound without changing the electrical signal?
Yes we are not communicating. Just because you haven't run into wire directionalitnin text books and such doesn't mean it doesn't exist. As I said all that required is to use your own ears. Reverse the direction of any fuse or nay cable and it will sound correct in one direction and relatively unantaural in the other direction. You are probably misconstruing what I said when I said half the waveform or signal is provided on each wire of the tow wire pair. You can see by inspection that the full cycle of the speaker diaphragm is produced by the first wire pushing out and the send wire pushing in. Uounyourself wrote that the magnetic fields induced by current cause the motion of the voice coil. Hel-loo!
It's a misconception that the audio signal travels at light-speed. It's the same reason why a light bulb light up as soon as you flick the light switch. It's not because the signal travels at light-speed, it's because all the electrons start moving at the same instant all along the wires. The audio signal is the free electrons. And they travel extremely *slowly* but change direction very *rapidly*.
"It's a misconception that the audio signal travels at light-speed"
Since the time it takes for the signal to leave the amplifier and arrive at the speaker terminals, as well as how long it takes for the speaker to radiate sound (vastly longer) is easily measured and the latter part of determining acoustic phase, perhaps you mean that cables have a audio signal propagation speed slightly less than the speed of light in Vacuum?
"Just because you haven't run into wire directionalitnin text books and such doesn't mean it doesn't exist. As I said all that required is to use your own ears. Reverse the direction of any fuse or nay cable and it will sound correct in one direction and relatively unantaural in the other direction."
I asked because i work with this stuff, am curious and have never observed anything that would suggest a preferred direction, or that the signal going to the speaker is altered by cable direction vs primary and secondary electrical properties.
My quest was to see if this is an engineering phenomena or a change which is within ones perception, potentially a result of changing too many (more than one) variables at once and not an electrical phenomena..
Our sense of acoustic reality is after all a combination of what we hear, see and already know and is why testing ones ears alone (a test without knowledge of which is A and B) usually gives results which are much less clear that sighted testing and so, shunned by the marketing forces based on a perception of change.
In that domain,working in this area, my increased skepticism may prevent me from hearing what you do if i had cables marked with direction.
So i would ask the same two opinion questions is the significant change you hear electrical / acoustic engineering or of knowledge and perception?
So does this audible wire directional effect change the electrical signal going to the speaker in any way?
Or does it make the audible change to the speaker's sound without changing the electrical signal?
The only constraints are the ones we bring with us. - Computer Sciences Corporation slogan
I'm not trying to set the world on fire, only start a flame in a few hearts. - Ed "Kookie" Burns
People would be much better off if they believed in too much rather than too little. - PT Barnum
The problem is, one can speculate all they want, imagine what they want and believe what you want about how things work, but if your job is designing things which depend the engineering properties which are not at all subjective judgements, one is limited to things which happen in that engineering domain.
IE, knowing your guitar as played by X musician, doesn't actually make it sound better other than the degree that knowledge changes the impression in your head.
In that world, a speaker cable cannot change what a speaker actually does unless it changes the signal arriving at the terminals.
But in reality, perhaps not your reality, cables DO change the signal arriving at the terminals. They change the signal in either direction no matter which way they're inserted into the system but they change it even more when they're inserted in the wrong direction.Advanced Audiophiles have learned a lot about cables since the early days. Directionality is not some new concept, audiophiles have known about it more 25 years. We have seen higher purity copper and silver conductors for about the same period, and air dielectrics and silver connectors, and cryogenics. Eliminating static electric charge, magnetic fields and vibration from cables. You'd have to be living in a cave these days not to be somewhat cognizant of these advancements. Highly polished conductor surfaces, directional power cords, directional fuses, directional HDMI cables. Oh, my! Try to break free from your reality tunnel.
Edits: 11/09/22
It just seems odd that the only audio companies that seem to tout the directionality of the wire they use are cable companies.
I've never seen a transformer company that advertises that the wire in their transformers has been wound with wire that has been oriented "correctly".
Same for companies selling amps and other gear, even exclusive high dollar "audiophile" brands. Since their customers are presumably "Advanced Audiophiles" you would think they would want to reassure them that the wire in their gear is oriented correctly, especially if this might give them a competitive edge.
Speakers? Never seen it mentioned, either. And on and on.
Only audio cable manufacturers.
Not that I'm particularly familiar with such advertising. Perhaps I'm wrong and, if so, maybe you could give some examples of non-cable audio companies that do mention this issue.
What about cable companies that are not primarily audio oriented? Belden is one of, if not the, largest cable manufacturers in the world. Perhaps a few of their products are used in applications where it matters and labelled as such. But I don't recall seeing any of their products labelled for directionality.
Do the engineers at Belden need to "break free of their reality tunnels" too?
But all the potential customers might think they were weird if they advertised it. It's like cryogenics, a lot of "audio enthusiasts" like yourself probably think it's weird, right?Audiophile fuse companies tell customers they should try the fuse both ways. Since, you know, all wire is directional, even silly little fuses. The fact some big commercial companies never heard of directionality doesn't surprise me, in fact that's what I would expect. I have to admit it warms my heart to think I know more about their product than they do.
An ordinary man has no means of deliverance.
Edits: 11/10/22 11/10/22 11/10/22
--> "But all the potential customers might think they were weird if they advertised it." <--
We're talking about the same customers who the cable companies are marketing their wares to, "Advanced Audiophiles", not someone who's buying a home theater setup at Best Buy or Walmart.
--> "The fact some big commercial companies never heard of directionality doesn't surprise me, in fact that's what I would expect. I have to admit it warms my heart to think I know more about their product than they do." <--
So you claim to know more about wire than the engineers at Belden? Hilarious.
I know about wire directionality. They don't. If they did they'd put arrows on their cables. You figure it out.
"but like" is a deflection from the very specific issue of directional wire isn't it?
What question do you have I haven't already answered? When people start picking at my words it looks like the discussion is ended.
"You'd have to be living in a cave these days not to be somewhat cognizant of these advancements. Highly polished conductor surfaces, directional power cords, directional fuses, directional HDMI cables. Oh, my! Try to break free from your reality tunnel. "
We we each have job's to do in audio, it would seem our tools and concepts behind what we design are very different.
It's a little like using cryogenics for cables, first everyone poo-pooed the whole idea 25 years ago, then before you know it, a great many high end cable companies were using cryogenics. You can't compete in the high end unless you are able to keep up with technology. Think of Directionality as a new "technology" - another tool in one's toolbox. It's all about competition. Good luck in your endeavors.The law of maximization: No matter how much you have in the end you would have had even more if you had started out with more.
Edits: 11/10/22
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