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In Reply to: RE: Cable terminations posted by geoffkait on November 07, 2022 at 13:56:47
Maybe we are not communicating, You made the comment that there was a direction to wire and they sound differently connected one way vs the other.
Other than what i described earlier, I don't see a way to have a speaker wire "change" the audio signal in a directional way that one can hear the result in a speaker, and I asked because wanted to see if there was something to it.
Outside of many hits in the "hifi" area i could not find any engineering references to this directional effect in a quick search and had never heard of that working with instrumentation, measurement and RF.
At the same time, it seems unlikely to be an otherwise unmeasured electrical phenomena, unique to home audio conditions and power levels.
So far as half of the signal traveling on each wire, have you ever used an oscilloscope? Think a battery, a light bulb and a pair of wires. Nothing happens until you have a complete circuit where the current flows in equal magnitude in both wires through the light bulb.
Dynamic speakers, woofers etc are a DC motor, the driver BL is how many Newtons of force the Voice coil produces per Amp of current in it, the signal is like the battery is constantly reversing and changing magnitude.
So it kind of has to be one of these two;
So does this audible wire directional effect change the electrical signal going to the speaker in any way?
Or does it make the audible change to the speaker's sound without changing the electrical signal?
Follow Ups:
Yes we are not communicating. Just because you haven't run into wire directionalitnin text books and such doesn't mean it doesn't exist. As I said all that required is to use your own ears. Reverse the direction of any fuse or nay cable and it will sound correct in one direction and relatively unantaural in the other direction. You are probably misconstruing what I said when I said half the waveform or signal is provided on each wire of the tow wire pair. You can see by inspection that the full cycle of the speaker diaphragm is produced by the first wire pushing out and the send wire pushing in. Uounyourself wrote that the magnetic fields induced by current cause the motion of the voice coil. Hel-loo!
It's a misconception that the audio signal travels at light-speed. It's the same reason why a light bulb light up as soon as you flick the light switch. It's not because the signal travels at light-speed, it's because all the electrons start moving at the same instant all along the wires. The audio signal is the free electrons. And they travel extremely *slowly* but change direction very *rapidly*.
"It's a misconception that the audio signal travels at light-speed"
Since the time it takes for the signal to leave the amplifier and arrive at the speaker terminals, as well as how long it takes for the speaker to radiate sound (vastly longer) is easily measured and the latter part of determining acoustic phase, perhaps you mean that cables have a audio signal propagation speed slightly less than the speed of light in Vacuum?
"Just because you haven't run into wire directionalitnin text books and such doesn't mean it doesn't exist. As I said all that required is to use your own ears. Reverse the direction of any fuse or nay cable and it will sound correct in one direction and relatively unantaural in the other direction."
I asked because i work with this stuff, am curious and have never observed anything that would suggest a preferred direction, or that the signal going to the speaker is altered by cable direction vs primary and secondary electrical properties.
My quest was to see if this is an engineering phenomena or a change which is within ones perception, potentially a result of changing too many (more than one) variables at once and not an electrical phenomena..
Our sense of acoustic reality is after all a combination of what we hear, see and already know and is why testing ones ears alone (a test without knowledge of which is A and B) usually gives results which are much less clear that sighted testing and so, shunned by the marketing forces based on a perception of change.
In that domain,working in this area, my increased skepticism may prevent me from hearing what you do if i had cables marked with direction.
So i would ask the same two opinion questions is the significant change you hear electrical / acoustic engineering or of knowledge and perception?
So does this audible wire directional effect change the electrical signal going to the speaker in any way?
Or does it make the audible change to the speaker's sound without changing the electrical signal?
The only constraints are the ones we bring with us. - Computer Sciences Corporation slogan
I'm not trying to set the world on fire, only start a flame in a few hearts. - Ed "Kookie" Burns
People would be much better off if they believed in too much rather than too little. - PT Barnum
The problem is, one can speculate all they want, imagine what they want and believe what you want about how things work, but if your job is designing things which depend the engineering properties which are not at all subjective judgements, one is limited to things which happen in that engineering domain.
IE, knowing your guitar as played by X musician, doesn't actually make it sound better other than the degree that knowledge changes the impression in your head.
In that world, a speaker cable cannot change what a speaker actually does unless it changes the signal arriving at the terminals.
But in reality, perhaps not your reality, cables DO change the signal arriving at the terminals. They change the signal in either direction no matter which way they're inserted into the system but they change it even more when they're inserted in the wrong direction.Advanced Audiophiles have learned a lot about cables since the early days. Directionality is not some new concept, audiophiles have known about it more 25 years. We have seen higher purity copper and silver conductors for about the same period, and air dielectrics and silver connectors, and cryogenics. Eliminating static electric charge, magnetic fields and vibration from cables. You'd have to be living in a cave these days not to be somewhat cognizant of these advancements. Highly polished conductor surfaces, directional power cords, directional fuses, directional HDMI cables. Oh, my! Try to break free from your reality tunnel.
Edits: 11/09/22
It just seems odd that the only audio companies that seem to tout the directionality of the wire they use are cable companies.
I've never seen a transformer company that advertises that the wire in their transformers has been wound with wire that has been oriented "correctly".
Same for companies selling amps and other gear, even exclusive high dollar "audiophile" brands. Since their customers are presumably "Advanced Audiophiles" you would think they would want to reassure them that the wire in their gear is oriented correctly, especially if this might give them a competitive edge.
Speakers? Never seen it mentioned, either. And on and on.
Only audio cable manufacturers.
Not that I'm particularly familiar with such advertising. Perhaps I'm wrong and, if so, maybe you could give some examples of non-cable audio companies that do mention this issue.
What about cable companies that are not primarily audio oriented? Belden is one of, if not the, largest cable manufacturers in the world. Perhaps a few of their products are used in applications where it matters and labelled as such. But I don't recall seeing any of their products labelled for directionality.
Do the engineers at Belden need to "break free of their reality tunnels" too?
But all the potential customers might think they were weird if they advertised it. It's like cryogenics, a lot of "audio enthusiasts" like yourself probably think it's weird, right?Audiophile fuse companies tell customers they should try the fuse both ways. Since, you know, all wire is directional, even silly little fuses. The fact some big commercial companies never heard of directionality doesn't surprise me, in fact that's what I would expect. I have to admit it warms my heart to think I know more about their product than they do.
An ordinary man has no means of deliverance.
Edits: 11/10/22 11/10/22 11/10/22
--> "But all the potential customers might think they were weird if they advertised it." <--
We're talking about the same customers who the cable companies are marketing their wares to, "Advanced Audiophiles", not someone who's buying a home theater setup at Best Buy or Walmart.
--> "The fact some big commercial companies never heard of directionality doesn't surprise me, in fact that's what I would expect. I have to admit it warms my heart to think I know more about their product than they do." <--
So you claim to know more about wire than the engineers at Belden? Hilarious.
I know about wire directionality. They don't. If they did they'd put arrows on their cables. You figure it out.
"but like" is a deflection from the very specific issue of directional wire isn't it?
What question do you have I haven't already answered? When people start picking at my words it looks like the discussion is ended.
"You'd have to be living in a cave these days not to be somewhat cognizant of these advancements. Highly polished conductor surfaces, directional power cords, directional fuses, directional HDMI cables. Oh, my! Try to break free from your reality tunnel. "
We we each have job's to do in audio, it would seem our tools and concepts behind what we design are very different.
It's a little like using cryogenics for cables, first everyone poo-pooed the whole idea 25 years ago, then before you know it, a great many high end cable companies were using cryogenics. You can't compete in the high end unless you are able to keep up with technology. Think of Directionality as a new "technology" - another tool in one's toolbox. It's all about competition. Good luck in your endeavors.The law of maximization: No matter how much you have in the end you would have had even more if you had started out with more.
Edits: 11/10/22
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