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In Reply to: RE: "You have unusually strong beliefs" posted by Ugly on November 15, 2022 at 11:41:06
"You make it sound like a religious argument, when it's actually a scientific argument."To which you responded,
Is it that the "breakthroughs" are so new that credible peer review groups have yet to process this information or is it that there has been plenty of time for that to happen and no credible peer groups seem to be echoing your result?
>>>>>HiF stuff is not peer reviewed. There is no peer review process for HiFi. Hel-loo! Besides, as I said many times already in this thread, directionality is not a new breakthrough. Directionality has been controlled for high end cables for 25 years. Have you been living in a cave somewhere?
You also wrote,
"Surely what applies in hifi would also apply in pro audio and therefore this information, if it really exists, would have importance outside of tweak circles."
>>>>That's a logical fallacy. I didn't say it was only in tweak circles, I said it was in HiFi circles, I said "directionality" applies to fuses, cables, speaker wiring, transformers. Wire directionality actually applies anywhere there is audio, even pro audio. You can pretend directionality doesn't exist, you can even hold your breath until your face turns blue, it's no skin off my nose.
I wrote, "What is my objective background in this area? Oh, goodie, a battle of the resumes!"
To which you responded,
"Says the guy who immediately resorts to name calling and questioning others degrees. Roll eye emojie here."
>>>>>That's an other logical fallacy since I never resort to name calling unless I'm called names first. That's fair isn't it? I have never questioned anyone's degree. Why would I? I just got though saying in my previous post it's an Appeal to Authority to claim a superior education or background. It doesn't prove anything. You can't win any argument by claiming you have a PhD in electrical engineering.
Edits: 11/15/22 11/15/22Follow Ups:
The problem is your claim of it being a scientific argument when there is little/no evidence suggesting it meets the standards. The claim implies the accepted scientific principles are being adhered to: (1) Pose significant questions that can be investigated empirically; (2) Link research to theory; (3) Use methods that permit direct investigation of questions; (4) Provide coherent chain of rigorous reasoning; (5) Replicate and generalize; and (6) Transparency and scholarly debate.
When/where is the evidence any of this research/experiment/debate has occured surrounding cable directionality questions?
Let us know when you've finished your research and report your results. I can hardly wait. It's actually not my job to provide evidence. Keep looking, have you contacted NASA or IEEE? Maybe they can help you.
Edits: 11/16/22
I'm not the one making the claims then calling them scientific.
It's not up to me to prove anything or even to provide evidence. Which I have already, you just refuse to listen. If you're curious and believe in the scientific method, which you probably don't, you investigate the claim yourself. Or you hire an outside independent third party to verify and validate the claims. Is not observation part of the scientific method? I saw an Apple fall from the tree. That sort of thing.Here's a challenge for you. Prove that directionality doesn't exist.
Edits: 11/17/22
Normally, if one proposes something "new to science" it is the duty of those proposing to show proof it exists. As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
That there is a directional effect in speaker cables is such a claim but lacks anything like "engineering proof" that you can point to other than some people say they can hear it.
Some people say a lot of things, here, most likely "if you can't hear it, your system doesn't have enough resolution" or other cop out.
Meanwhile the fact it is only folks associated with the audio aftermarket biz that seem to promote this idea, that there is no attempt to show and engineering explanation, leaves many rightfully skeptical and some going to great lengths to promote it.
I'm not proposing something new to science, as you say. Whatever gave you that idea? Do you consider yourself informed of everything in science, is the real question. I'm beginning to think so.I am under no obligation to present engineering proof, as you say, or proof of any kind or even evidence. This is not a peer review forum, in case you haven't heard.
By the way, I never said directionality is real because some people claim to hear it. Why do you insist on putting words in my mouth? (You are very adept at using pseudo skeptic arguments.)
Because systems can sometimes have errors and peoples' listening skills are often unreliable, negative results of a test for directionality are meaningless. Even if the test is a controlled blind test. Meaningful results start to emerge after many tests on many systems with many test subjects. Repeatability and transferability are the key.
You keep trying to argue that only niche audiophiles are concerned about directionality. That's true but it doesn't mean it's not real. You can follow that logic, right? That's another pseudo skeptic argument.
Edits: 11/17/22 11/17/22
"Meaningful results start to emerge after many tests on many systems with many test subjects. Repeatability and transferability are the key."
And you have that data? Can you share it?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
It's not up to me to provide any data. If you had read more carefully you'd have noticed I said tests by many people on many systems. I.e., independent testing. You probably aren't familiar with IV&V, I bet.
Edits: 12/19/22
"Because systems can sometimes have errors and peoples' listening skills are often unreliable, negative results of a test for directionality are meaningless."
It is the exact same reason to be skeptical of positive results, or if you really believe in cable directionality, the ability of a manufacturer to deliver the products to the customer consistently without any case of somehow confusing the customer into installing them backwards.... mislabelled cable direction indicator per manufacturing defect as an example.
"Meaningful results start to emerge after many tests on many systems with many test subjects. Repeatability and transferability are the key."
There seems to be some logical flaw in the following line of reasoning: "listening skills are often unreliable", and yet the proposed method of detecting the effect, ie (paraphrasing) "just listen myself and see if I like one direction better than the other".
There are at least two conductors per interconnect per channel. However the only thing most of us would consider practical is multistrand not solid core. That is a ton of book keeping just to get one cable built correctly with out any mistakes. It's hard to imagine how all this overhead wouldn't be prohibitively expensive for a boutique audiophile manufacturer to control. And really begs the question why bother doing the listening test on any old manufacturers multistrand cables with presumably random distributions of strands within the multistrand bundles pointing in one direction or the other.
No, positive results are not the same as negative results. Negative results from a single test have no meaning. That's because too many things can and do go wrong with tests. But positive results are meaningful because they were positive *in spite of* the many possible pitfalls.What are those pitfalls, you ask. Fair enough, here is a short list,
1. Error(s) in the test system, including but not limited to, speakers wired out of phase, cabling connected out of phase, absolute polarity of system inverted, cables or electronics not broken in sufficiently. These error would potentially mask differences in sound.
2. Test system lacks adequate resolution for task at hand, making the sound differences impossible to detect.
3. Listener not sufficiently skilled at detecting differences in sound.
4. Listener doesn't know what differences in the sound to look for. What difference in sound does directionality produce?
5. Test procedures not followed.
6. Listener might be biased against the test item(s). He could be strongly anti tweak and nit admit to any Sonic differences if there are any.
One person's listening skill might not be up to the level of someone else's. If you don't know what directionality sounds like you might not hear it the first time around. That's what I meant by listener skill being unreliable. You can't drag some guy in off the street and expect him to hear directionality.
It's not difficult to control any wire or cable for directionality. You must "control" the wire as soon as it comes off the spool, every length of wire after that is in the direction. AudioQuest (and others) has been doing this for many years uh, 25, so obviously it's not prohibitively expensive, as you say.
For fuses, the wire doesn't have to be controlled during manufacture since it's easy to reverse the fuse in its holder and decide which way sounds best.
Finally, in an AC circuit there are two wires, one carries the electrical signal in one direction while the electrical signal travel in the opposite direction at the same time. The signals alternate direction on each wire according to the instantaneous audio frequency.
Edits: 11/19/22 11/20/22 11/20/22
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