Propeller Head Plaza Technical and scientific discussion of amps, cables and other topics.

---

[ Follow Ups ] Thread: [ Display  All  Email ] [ Propeller Head Plaza ]

---

[ Alert Moderator ]

---

Re: PC/IC/amp/source interactions

Posted by Jon Risch (B) on May 2, 2004 at 17:54:35

In Reply to: PC/IC/amp/source interactions posted by jneutron on April 28, 2004 at 09:22:51:

This info has been around for a while, see:
http://www.soundstage.com/articles/pete01.htm
(Been listed in my Annotated Cable Bibliograghy for several years, back to 1999)

I note with irony, the brand for the equipment review he chose to discuss this in regard to.

Note his comments about twisted pair with shield IC's reducing this, as well as balanced AC power also reducing the amount of current in the loop.

With that in mind, see:

DIY Cables and RFI/ICGP (Inter Chassis Ground Potentials)
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/80108.html

Minimizing AC Power Leakage Currents, OR How to Orient Your Two-prong Non-polarized AC Plugs:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/36909.html

DIY AC Balanced Power
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/catch2.htm

Folks have been trying to address these issues IN THEIR OWN WAY for a while now, but you have to realize that the vast majority of people looking at your post and it's circuit diagram, go blank and do not even read on. Rather than attempt to educate the masses up to EE level, I provide designs and recipes for minimizing these issues, as well as advice with regard to addressing ICGP. For this, I have been villified at AR and said to be in the same class as Hitler and the SS.

It doesn't pay to try and explain one's self, you are already "guilty", you are promoting cables as having sonic differences, therefore you MUST be a bad person and technically incompetent, BECAUSE IN THE NAYSAYER'S MIND, IT CAN'T POSSIBLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE, NO WAY. Skeptic at AR is a classic example, as are several others who used to frequent the old AR boards. You seemed to come on like that at first, with almost all of your energy devoted to showing what couldn't possibly be audible (mosquitos.)

It gets so old after awhile. Perhaps if you had come around when I was still fresh and tangling with Arny (the Demon Lord Master of the BORG), I might have bothered to explain a few more things more completely, but after getting your chops bashed without end for 4-5 years, one losses some of that patience.

All the various aspects of audio IC cables do not revolve STRICTLY around the AC power ground loop issue, just as speaker cables do not correlate their sonic quality only with the inductance level. With really good home playback systems, all of the various factors come into play to some extent or another, and it is simply amazing what is audible, and what does have an effect. But until you have been there, actually heard the effects as one cable is swapped out for another, and done this so many times, in so many different systems, it is still just a minor academic excercise in theory, rather than the reality of having been heard to the point it is beyond any shadow of a doubt.

You make a big point of stating now that you are "the most scientific". see:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/8457.html

""In my pointing out Nordmark and the ramifications of his research, and applying that research to the issue of high end imaging, cables, amps, and tying it all together with valid e/m theory, I have provided a more scientific basis for "cable sonics" than anyone I have found to date. I, more than anyone, have provided a huge avenue of research which needs to be addressed

While you and others rant and rave like obsessed lunatics about how "their" science does not have all the answers....I have been working on re-shaping their science..

So, after all these years, of "lunatics" defying science, I will have provided more of a basis for audibility of cables than all the rants and raves of the last couple of decades.. ""

I am sure that YOU think this is the case, that NO ONE ELSE has EVER looked at audio cables with the proper scientific attitude, and the proper physics background, and so on. If you feel this way, perhaps it is because you have been turning your nose up at other folks explainations, and their recounting of their experiences. Doing so with claims of "garbage science", when in point of fact, you had never bothered to really think about or fully examine the basis for some of these ideas and speculations.

A good example is the Cross-Connected 89259. You admitted yourself, that you had never bothered to look at the pictures and diagrams at my website, UNTIL you got tripped up by a verbal description of what was going on with that geometry. You thought it was wired another way than it is, and had been arguing about it prior to that using a faulty basis of how it worked. Then once you did figure it out, gee, it was interesting and had something to offer in temrs of geometry and performance.

You even got so charged up, you built your own versions of low inductance speaker cables, which of course, you decided were superior to everything else out there, CC89259 and Wireworld included.

How's that old saw go? John Curl has brought this one up several times:
1. It won't work.
2. It works, but it's not important
3. We invented it.

I think the main thing is, that until you have actually heard the sonic effects on a good system, it's all just so much theory and physics.
Some folks never do hear such things, whether due to their hearing, system, or some form of mental bias. Others have been hardcore naysayers, but then did come to hear some of the same things that I and other pro-cable folks do, and then they did either a complete reversal of their position, or were no longer so sure about the matter, usually not sure enough to post any more about it.

I am glad that you have finally found a theory or two that you are comfortable enough with to allow yourself to seriously consider that audio cables can affect the sound of a good home playback system. The rest of us have been there, done that, gotten better cables and moved on.

In my case, I take the time and make the effort to help others acheive better sound via high performance DIY audio cables, and other audio tweaks that all have a sound basis in engineering and physics, but haven't necessarily been layed out in Chapter X of a college textbook.
Along the way, I have had to take some serious flak over the matter of cables, more crap than anyone should have over a hobby, and for promoting a build your own optioon that is a fraction fo the cost of retail cables.

Jon Risch

This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:

Parts Connexion

---

[ Top of Page ] [ Contact Us ] [ Support/Wish List ] [ Copyright © 2025, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]

---

[ General ] [ Speakers ] [ Tubes ] [ Vinyl ] [ Digital ] [ Hi-Rez ] [ Video Asylum ] [ Cables ] [ Tweaks/DIY ] [ Music ] [ Films ]

---