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In Reply to: RE: Haven't seen any new CD treatments for a very long time posted by Geoffkait on August 08, 2024 at 08:22:57
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They're not all placebos since I've experienced a clear improvement(almost immediately obvious to many educated listeners) which is unfortunately not commercially available. I believe at least some of the sprays work similarly according to the designer but they aren't permanent. Some tweaks work. It's unfortunate we call them tweaks which implies triviality.
It is only us hoi polloi that see a naked king.
What you, the hoi poloi believe is often because of conditioning.
Sorry it works. It was offered to many companies who made super CDs and they all turned it down although they heard the difference and it would have cost pennies. A few of the developer's friends know and use it. But the inventor's widow is so hurt by his mistreatment she asked us not to reveal it. So I don't.
In this case you can't try it unless I meet you and demo it which I can't do. But don't slough off stuff as placebos without at least trying them. I've made the mistake. For on I doubted vibration isolation for electronics and when I finally did try it under my CD drive(Pioneer DVD player into a separate DAC) it was as if I just spent thousands instead of hundreds and it was just the drive.
I was being a bit facetious. When I read it was appreciated by educated listeners that raised a flag and then it wasn't available to the general public that raised the flag a bit more that this could appeal to those susceptible to the King's new clothes effect.
Obviously, I haven't heard it so take my comments in that context. I am interested in CD transport tweaks as they should be objectively provable: they must either allow the transport to read data correctly where it was incorrect before, they the lower jitter of the recovered data or they allow the transport servos to track more easily and so draw less current that might couple noise into the analog domain. If you're using a separate transport that pretty much rules out the last one, I think the effects of jitter are way overblown and who knows whether the data off the disc in real time is truly correct (though that must be provable). My inner engineer thinks that if you perceived an issue with reading CDs and invented a solution (pun intended) to fix that issue that you would also do something to prove it had worked rather than just say it does! And wouldn't proof help sales? But that never happens :(
And, or course, it's always good to bait Geoff Kait. Hey - that should be a t-shirt!
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BGK
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None so blind that will not see.
That's very interesting that you think they all aren't permanent since I have found all the one that work are permanent. Why do you feel they aren't permanent? I realize some anti static sprays might not be permanent. But not all CD treatments address static electric charge on CDs. In addition, some CD treatments used to claim they remove mold release compound MRC from CD surface yet I am 80% sure MRC is not used in CD manufacture.
Edits: 08/10/24 08/10/24
I was only speaking about static electricity, my bad for not being more specific, which does affect CD play noticeably. And most of those treatments, such as spray, are temporary, sometimes not even lasting for a full CD.
There are many things that affect the sound. Scattered laser light, the colors of the CD label, whether the CD disc is properly stabilized, vibration isolation of the player/transport. AND the effect of the things in the local environment that influence hearing. In fact, I'd opine this last issue is BY FAR - the most detrimental to the sound. It's things not related to the audio system that are the biggest problem. Live and let die.
Edits: 08/12/24
I totally agree about microphonics in electronics and especially concerning digital. I'm not sure I agree about your last assertion unless you're talking about room interactions but I always try to keep an open mind.
You're right, I'm not talking about room resonances. I thought I made that clear. It's not a complex theory, it's actually very simple, the more things you take out of the room the better the SQ. The sky's the limit. I guess audiophiles really are stuck in first gear. They don't like anything new. They tend to psych themselves out.
Placebos, expectation bias, and other pseudo skeptic psychological mumbo jumbo.
Edits: 08/08/24 08/08/24
But usually the audiophile ego thinks it is real and they must have special hearing and then try to explain how it works - that makes me unhappy :)
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We humans are easily fooled. It is how we are wired. We can't help it.
That is why we need to be so careful to guard against these things.
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Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Reading the audio data off CDs is one area of audiophilia that should be quantifiable - is the data read correctly, is it presented at the right time (jitter) and does it affect how hard the servos have to work to recover the data (power supply modulation). Tweak proponents could measure these things and prove efficacy but in the upside down audiophile world it is for the rational to disprove them. Some (many?) believe everything makes a difference and will tweak anything/everything and, perhaps, manufacturers are the same and they don't have a rational idea what they are doing and so wouldn't know how to prove anything.
For full disclosure I think it obvious my expectation bias is that these things don't work so I don't try them. Thus I can't say they don't work, only that it is very unlikely they do.
The polycarbonate layer is not completely transparent to the CD laser. It's only 90%. Whereas optical glass is 97% or higher. That's why some Japanese CDs sound so fabulous, SHM CDs. Super High-performance Materials. They use optical glass for the clear layer. Now, image there's a liquid spray treatment that makes the clear layer behave like optical glass. That would be news, right?
You almost proposed something that could be quantified in its effect on the signal reflected back to the receiver and, hence, the recovered data. I am sure a few back of the envelope calculations would show us if this is plausible or specious.
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Let me think about it for a few days and I'll get back to you.
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Play a cd. Then put a few drops of dawn or similar on the cd, rinse and wipe dry. Play cd again. Is there a difference?
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Nice!
Nt
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