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Back in February, I sold a pair of Nordost Frey IC's to "Vleena2" on AudiogoN. He asked that I declare and insure them for $50, despite my warning him of the insurance consequences. Unfortunately, in my obsessive quest to please, I agreed. Never again.
Long story short:
The package was lost in the mail (USPS), and when I tried to refund Vleena2's money for the insurance and postage, he refused, claiming I defrauded him. Subsequently, he managed to defraud his credit card company into issuing a chargeback, and they found in his favor, despite my providing all of the shipping information--including the customs form, the USPS letter of final determination that the package was lost, and the USPS claims form.
Moral:
1) Don't under-declare;
2) Credit card companies apparently ignore evidence if it contradicts their customers; and
3) Don't sell to Vleena2 in Thailand. He absolutely refused to take any responsibility for the decision to under-declare, but instead decided to accuse me of fraud. He is the very definition of low-life scum.
Email me if you would like more details.
Louis
Follow Ups:
When taking credit cards, always assume you are handling dynamite. Credit card companies want accurate documents and tracking numbers. This means at the very least Express Mail, UPS or Fed Ex. Declare at full value.
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Avoid using mail service of any kind to Spain, Italy and Greece. French mail seems to have it's bad periods, other times can be quite good. As a rule European mail systems and customs departments can be as good as any found in 1730 A.D.
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If a customer wants anything else, say to them send a bank check or bank wire transfer.
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Credit card companies like things nice and neat, they would rather you do not ship to addresses other than the billing address. I have had banks tell me always assume the customer is a crook (The price of getting shafted, maybe $1,000's. Corporate sincerity- priceless). Remember, it's the bank's card (not the customer's) so it's their rules. Keep in mind PayPal is no better.
I'd rather not be in Philadelphia.
Yes it is common practice to underdeclare a bit. I don't have a problem with it if it's an exceptional occurrence and obviously that's it not organized fraud from business to business. If you declare full value, the customs will apply an exchange rate which is unrealistic (and not in your favour) and add mysterious taxes. As a result, in Europe, you would end up paying about 30% on anything you order from overseas.
So yes, that's a little white lie that doesn't hurt anybody. Kinda like copying an album on a tape in the 70s and giving it to a friend. It's tolerated as long as it's not the kind of abuse we see now of downloading anything for free.
The downside is that obviously, you can't insure more than the value you declare. That's a risk you're taking. You've been very unlucky with this customer, but rest assured not everybody's like him.
Now YOUR mistake was to send USPS and with no tracking number to a faraway country. That was really looking for trouble. Considering the guy is dishonest, he probably DID receive your cable. It was his plan all along. You've learnt a lesson and it's got nothing to do with under declaring.
I have no idea why Duilawyer went off the rails. Maybe he had a bad week.
Edits: 10/02/08 10/02/08 10/02/08 10/02/08
Did you think if the package never arrived he would settle for the $50 insurance instead of his full payment being refunded? And let you keep his full payment??
Why would anyone ever do that?
Are you crazy?
Your story makes no sense, I think you are hiding something.
Did you under insure (lie to the insurance plan for UPS) or lie to customs?
No B.S. here. You should have your detector re-calibrated.
It is a simple rule--the USPS, UPS, FedEx, any international shipper, is not allowed to insure a package for more than its declared value. So, by asking me to declare the package at $50, the buyer (as I explained to him prior) was asking me also to insure the package for no more than $50. He understood this, and I have his emails that document his understanding. I didn't get anything from under-declaring/under-insuring, because our agreement was that the buyer was paying all shipping costs. I had no incentive to under-declare/under-insure other than to please the buyer.
The choice of amount of insurance doesn't involve lying or telling the truth--it is the choice of the customer based on the value of the package, the risks involved in shipping the item, and the risk preferences of the customer.
The lie was to customs in Thailand (to which the package never arrived), because the buyer asked me to lie. This is a common request from international buyers. I put myself in a somewhat precarious position on the buyer's behalf, so that he could save some money on import duties, and I assumed he would be a stand up guy and recognize my kindness were something to go wrong. I was wrong in my assumption. Instead, he took the opportunity to accuse me of trying to steal $500 from him when the package was lost.
I made a mistake when I under-declared, but there was no malice involved. I was doing it at the request of the buyer. The other mistake I made was assuming the buyer was an upstanding guy who recognized the position he was asking me to put myself in and wouldn't take advantage of it if something went wrong. Instead he proved himself to be a common jackass.
Louis
P.S. I won't even go into how absurd the scenario would have to be in order for me to have accomplished such a theft, while providing the documentation from the USPS as to shipment, inquiry, and claims. Give me a break. I may be guilty of breaking a customs law somewhere, but not of trying to steal $500 from some prick in Thailand.
And doing it at the request of the buyer does not make you lack malice, it makes you working in tandem to deceive the US government; an accomplice. This has nothing to do with theft. Although I would bet your accomplice in the customs fraud has the stereo goods. And his "postman" has a tip. But that is not the point.
STFU, is my advice.
Did you support the Patriot Act?
"If you want to go for a ride in that old car, you better hope it don't break down."
you lied to BOTH the US and the Thai governments. Perjured export declarations given the US government violate the Patriot Act.
Tell me if and when you realize it is best to STFU immeidately. I say that with all due respect.
To everyone else here, I am sorry to stir the shit pot. I have asked the moderator to delete the entire thread.
Don't make fun of me for sucessfully catching you lying. Thank me for trying to help you avoid a felony conviction.
I freely admitted to the under-declaration in my initial message. Don't act like you've uncovered something. You suggested there was something I was hiding, and you were wrong. That's why I said your B.S. meter needs re-calibrating.
Further, there was no export tax applicable to this transaction. The only tax in play was an import duty in Thailand. Felony--my ass.
I do not support the Patriot Act, and I wish I had a choice other than McCain and Obama.
I know I made a mistake, but the point of my original message was that I did it to help out the buyer, and he turned on me. I got nothing out of the under-declaration but exposure. The buyer was the beneficiary, and he accused me of stealing from him when the package was lost. Perhaps I was naive to think that my favor would be considered if things didn't go as planned. I won't do it again.
By the way, there is no way to say STFU with all, or any, due respect. I'm clearly not concerned about ending up in Gitmo, else I wouldn't have posted in the first place.
Louis
You can post with an all knowing attitude, and I really hate to call names, but your mistake is that insurance was FOR YOU, It is what you get if the parcel is lost or damaged. The buyer gets a refund of everything he paid. More advice. I am not accusing you of theft, please. The dishonesty is the false evaluation of the value to allow the BUYER to escape customs tariffs. IF YOU DID THAT, drop this thread now, don't try to convince me you are right, and let's ask the moderators to delete it ASAP. For your benefit. Felony.
My job is to look for lies, and liars. My BS detector just went off.
NEVER AGREE to fradulent documents.
But your story loses me.
Why should he not get a full refund if he never got the package.
You "insured" for $50, but why??
What benefit would the buyer get with lower insurance?
What was it worth?
I think you are confusing insurance with customs. If you put the value at $50 for Customs, drop the thread, you violated the Patriot Act. You losing some stereo gear means you got off cheap. WHY WOULD you ever f*in agree to false insurance evaulation??
Were you going to cheat the insurance company or cheat UPS?
For future refernce, and this goes to life and Audiogon.
ANYONE who will cheat with you, will cheat on you.
I contrived this elaborate scam, involving insiders at the USPS, to steal $500 (about 3% of my net monthly income) from an unsuspecting innocent down in Thailand.
I assume you are on McCain's short list of possible Supreme Court nominees.
Louis
Commit felony, then whine about it not succeeding on internet.
How much more did this buyer pay than the next lowest bidder??
So that amount is the profit you accepted to conspire to defraud the US government? $100?
Better than 30 pieces of silver.
So to make a little more money you agreed to execute fraudulent customs documents.
You ain't the victim, You are the criminal.
That is how a prosecutor would see this. Which is why I do not prosecute and never have.
"The wicked accuse, the godly defend."
This buyer was simply the one who asked first.
Geez, I guess I should have known that a forum called "Shady Lane" would be the one hijacked by a spastic lawyer.
For the Supreme Court I want Lawrence Tribe.
if you Registered this item, you can still track this through USPS, tho' you will have to fill out a form at your Post Office + a reply will take a while
If indeed the delivery wasn't made, the item will be returned to you *surface* which could take months from there
If it was, you should appeal to the Card company as the Registered details will show who signed for the item, and when
Grins
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