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My experience with Audeze LCD-2 and HD800 is that they are not as coherent as some lower priced headphones. They all over-emphasize the bass and the bass, mids and treble are not cohesive, so that that the "whole" is just the sum of a lot of disconnected parts. For me, this really shows on string quartets and dynamic symphony music.
One explanation for the popularity of these speakers is that many buyers don't have a lot of experience with listening to recorded music through good speakers. Another is that these cans cater to people who favor a "wow" factor in what they hear and a lot of this has to do with the exaggerated bass, often at the expense of the mids and especially the treble.
Yes, No?
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
Follow Ups:
My first high end phones were Sen 600, driven by a Headroom Max Amp. I found the presentation to be overly warm and they were unable to obtain the the volume levels I wanted without distorting. I then decided to bridge the pot on the Headroom and use a Placette passive for attenuation. This helped but the short comings in the 600 were still there. So, I upgraded to the Sen 650s, when the came out. They had even more bass, but not as overall balance and musical. I used a Cardas cable with both Sens.
I then moved on the AKG 701s, which I preferred to the Sens. A completely different animal, to say the least. But at the end of the day, I found them to be way too analytical and again completely unable to play loud with breaking up.
I then moved on to the Audeze LCD-3 with a Moon Audio Silver Dragon cable. I also replaced the Headroom Max, (which was quite good) with a Pacette Active preamp with a Placette modified Headphone section. (The mod allowed 6db extra gain over the stock headphone output), to help drive the power hungry Audeze.
This combo has proven to be, by far, the best I've heard. I don't think one can't overlook the upstream components, to include cables, when talking about headphones, or speakers for that matter. But headphone even more so.
I sold the Sens, but have kept the 701s. When the mood strikes, they still dig deeper into a recording than anything else I've heard. I find it more interesting than musical. Great insight into the mixing process.
... chasing those last few percentage points of extra resolution. Many listeners have decided that some of these so-called "Flagships" are simply not worth the extra money.Surprise, surprise!
Most "flagship" headphones have significant - and sometimes unforgivable - flaws. Even when a pair of Flagship headphones performs superbly on the test bench, there is no guarantee that they are going to pass our own subjective listening tests. Flat frequency response and/or vanishingly low distortion figures cannot mask the types of flaws that only show up after long-term, "real-world" listening tests have had a chance to leave their indelible marks upon our brains.
In the headphone world, price-to-performance ratio often starts decreasing gradually after the $600 mark. "Value" status in headphones often begins dropping precipitously at or around the $1000 mark. Sometimes, all you get for your extra $$$ will be more exotic materials, better fit n' finish, and maybe even some bragging rights (within certain circles).
I will continue to maintain that many sub-$1000 headphones perform superbly so long as you match them up with recordings that showcase their own unique strengths. In other words, instead of spending $2000 on a single pair of headphones, I might prefer to buy three or four cheaper pairs. Each of these cheaper pairs might have it's own set of strengths (and weaknesses). But so long as I know which types of recordings to match each pair up with I can end up with an ensemble of "specialty" headphones. A group of less expensive headphones, used with discrimination, might surpass the overall capabilities of any single pair of "flagship" headphones.
Read all about it in this review (at least read the first few paragraphs of it), via the link provided below...
Edits: 03/10/14 03/10/14 03/10/14 03/10/14 03/10/14
You wrote,
"... chasing those last few percentage points of extra resolution. Many listeners have decided that some of these so-called "Flagships" are simply not worth the extra money."
Hell, I got at least 30% more resolution just by removing the grills and the crappy foam pads from the Sennheiser HD600s.
I swapped out the stock, thick plastic grills on a pair of HD-580s with a pair of HD-600 grills and noticed a substantial improvement. I suspect that many headphones have grills that hamper the sound to some degree. I guess I am not quite ready to go without grills altogether, though...
Edits: 03/11/14
Yep, pretty scary, right?
;-)
It's relatively easy to pop off the grills and remove the foam pads temporarily, you know, just see to what it sounds like. You know you want to. :-)
If you understood how accident prone I can be you might understand why going grill-less would seem to be the "pretty scary" option for me. I believe that they put those grills on there for a pretty good reason.
Edits: 03/12/14
the drivers are well protected by the plastic frame that .. err.. frames.. their back.
It is a quick do/undo process, takes less than it took me to type this. About the same as it would take a semi-competent typist to complete the task.
KP
Hi,
We have both these (and more) as in house references at the office.
I would not call the HD-800 bass heavy by any stretch of imagination, rather I would complain that the bass is on the lean side.
The Audeze LCD-2 have a well extent-ended bass, but it could be perhaps a trifle tighter. The HF is a little on the "tame" side.
So what I would like to know is what headphone amplifier you are using. The problem may be on the amplification side, rather than with the Headphone's.
Ciao T
Sometimes I'd like to be the water
sometimes shallow, sometimes wild.
Born high in the mountains,
even the seas would be mine.
(Translated from the song "Aus der ferne" by City)
Actually, I think it has more to do with my ears and my brain: how I hear, and what I like in, sound. I have a 2A3 Stratus amp (with AVVT tubes) made by Donald North. It's quite neutral, fast and has pretty good bass and a great treble, all working together, and it sounds blissful to me on the 701s, as does almost every other tube and SS headphone amp i have owned. The 701s sound more like a loudspeaker than the others, where the bass, mids and treble don't seem like they fit together. Bass doesn't really hold my interest. Also, the HD800s are fatiguing and the LCD-2s are just too dark for my tastes with this amp. The HD800s sound somewhat more engaging and less fatiguing and the LCD-2s a little less dark (more romance in the color) on my SS amp.
You can't please everyone.
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
Hi,
> The 701s sound more like a loudspeaker than the others,
I do rather like the 701's myself.
> Also, the HD800s are fatiguing
Yes, they do have a slight slant towards being bright. You need an amplifier with a very smooth sound if this is not to become a problem.
> and the LCD-2s are just too dark for my tastes with this amp.
Hmmm, could be taste or could be unwanted interactions. The DNA website says output Impedance is 8 Ohm. This is a bit on the high side for most modern headphones, it will suit older designsbetter.
> The HD800s sound somewhat more engaging and less fatiguing and
> the LCD-2s a little less dark (more romance in the color) on my
> SS amp.
This tome points more on incompatibility with the Amplifier, rather than the headphones themselves.
> You can't please everyone.
This is true. And with the right Amp the AKG K701 is a cracking headphone. With your tastes you should try an ESL Headphone. They do tend to have a clear loudness ceiling and bass impact is not really their strength.
But when I don't want to "rock out" on headphones I use an ESL System myself at home, for "really loud" I use modified Fostex Planars. Out of choice. I could have almost any Headphone under the sun, just need to take home from the Office... :P
Ciao T
Sometimes I'd like to be the water
sometimes shallow, sometimes wild.
Born high in the mountains,
even the seas would be mine.
(Translated from the song "Aus der ferne" by City)
8 ohms output impedance is now considered high? What is the new "modern" standard?
How times have changed! My DNA Sonett is not very old but it features 28/120 Ohm switchable output impedance.
Thorsten,
What amp did you find to work well with 701's?
TonyB
The LCD-2 has a near flat impedance curve, so amplifier output impedance has little influence on frequency response into the headphone.As for the HD800, Sennheiser's own HDVA800 amplifier has a 43 ohm output impedance to attain what they feel is the optimal sound from the headphones.
Edits: 03/03/14
I have a speaker amp to headphone adapter coming which has variable impedance settings and i am interested in trying both my SET and PP speaker amps with my collection of headphones using it. If it suggests an improvement to my ears, I may go up to a transformer based adapter.
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
When they first came out, I bought a pair of Sennheiser HD 650 thinking they would be great... wrong! Lifeless, sterile, not much bass... I guess they're good if you're looking for flat response, but IMHO not a good choice if you're a rocker.
Replaced them with a pair of Denon 5000 and it's been happily ever after. But I gotta admit, I would love to hear a pair of Audeze. :-)
Jim
I had an OTL amp and they sounded good from top to bottom, except they were a bit on the colored side. I wanted something a little more honest, which is why I bought the K701s.
There is a lot of disagreement about headphones, if you dig deep enough on head-fi and i think a lot of it has to do with a user's preference. Also, the source is very important, esp. if it's digital.
The fact that I find the HD800s more tolerable on my SS amp may have more to do with the source i use (Audio Note 4.1x vs. Wavelength Proton) than the amp.
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
But not Stax.
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
Not since buying my JVC Flats. They are incredible and a different color for each day of the week is almost doable. Great pillow phones because they are...well...flat!
I borrowed some HD800s. I preferred the HD600 headphones that I've used for over ten years -- on first impressions, and after weeks of comparison.
Can't say I've ever found the 800s bass-heavy; if anything a little lean in the upper and mid-bass, not too different from the 701s, but they seem to go much deeper. Yes, possibly a tad bright, but just a little, and just with some amps. Driven by a Bottlehead Crack amp with a Corda Crossfeed circuit, I can happily have them on for hours.
The last so-called flagship cans I had were Koss ESP-9s back in the 70's. They *were* a touch better, with mids that rivaled the original Quads, better high-end extension, and stunningly good bass. But they were about as comfortable as a couple bricks clamped to your head.
WW
"A man need merely light the filaments of his receiving set and the world's greatest artists will perform for him." Alfred N. Goldsmith, RCA, 1922
I have a number; the most serious contender is the K701. It sounds more natural and cohesive than the HD800 or LCD-2, which i also own.More and more, I think it's a matter of sound preference, the music one listens to and system synergy...in that order. IMO, no headphone can reproduce recorded music as well as a pretty average-good speaker.
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
Edits: 02/26/14
K701's over HD800's?
On the one hand, well, everyones ears hear differently.
On the other hand, you're crazy. Barking mad.
I've owned both. It's like comparing BOSE 901's to Quad ESL's.
"The problem with quotes from the internet is that many of them just are just made up."
-Abraham Lincoln
I'm glad you were able to restrain yourself.
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
Agree on the 701's. I don't like thick, bloated sounding bass but some people think that "bass-heavy" headphones provide them with a more tactile listening experience.Headphones and loudspeakers each have their own strengths, IMO.
Edits: 03/10/14
I find the bass to be the strong point of the HD800s, but nothing else, and i am not into bassy music.
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
... the bass frequencies (or any single ASPECT of any kind, for that matter) seem to be ***the strong point*** of a pair of headphones, that is when I know that something fundamentally important is missing. Or, at the very least, such is an indication that the dramatic roles a given pair of headphones might play are limited ones.I feel that almost every pair of headphones is going to have it's strengths as well as it's shortcomings. But one of the things I like most about the 701 is that it is one of the most coherent sounding headphones. In this case, "coherency" implies that select frequency range(s) rarely seem to overpower other parts of the frequency range.
When the frequency arc is ***subjectively smooth*** (regardless of the actual measurements) the gateway to Audio Nirvana no longer seems to be fronted by the Hounds of Hell. This is very comforting feeling to have.
Edits: 02/27/14 02/27/14 02/27/14
Thanks. My own use of the term may be the same, I'm not sure. For speakers, I would emphasize the seamless quality of the cross-overs, so that the transitions are smooth. For headphones, perhaps "well integrated" is what I mean. In other words, the sound in the various frequency ranges fits together. In Flagships, that often isn't the case.
I also find it interesting that while most audiophiles find the joy of music in the mid-range (if you had to pick one), headophiles seem to prefer bass.
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
... (once again) sometimes prefer a slight overdose of bass. In real life deep bass is felt by the body, just as it is heard by the ears. Similarly, vibrations and/or air movement being pushed against the skin and bones of the skull during headphone listening contributes to a feeling of realism.The only problem is, in order to provide any semblance of this sort of "feeling" (tactile bass) within the confines of the typical headphone earpiece, one might end up by boosting the bass frequencies somewhat beyond what might be considered as "neutral" in frequency response. "Neutral", as considered by those who don't feel the need for their skull to shake during listening?
Edits: 02/28/14
"one might end up by boosting the bass frequencies somewhat beyond what might be considered as "neutral" in frequency response. "Neutral", as considered by those who don't feel the need for their skull to shake during listening?"
OMG, you can't be serious?
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Why, of course - I am always very serious when I kid around about serious things. It's yes and no...Yes, the bass is literally "boosted" in a number of popular headphone designs. And no, heads don't literally shake when people listen to them.
Edits: 03/01/14
the new Abyss headphones. They were so "piercing" in the bass, I literally had to rip them off my head to avoid shock therapy treatment.
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
I didn't like the Audeze's. They didn't sound 'right' to me and were super uncomfortable.
My HD800's, OTOH, are wonderful. As detailed as my Quads and super comfortable. I listen to them about an hour a day.
"The problem with quotes from the internet is that many of them just are just made up."
-Abraham Lincoln
I've been using the HD800 & the other planar HP, the Hifiman HE 6. I don't know that
if you can say that I'm disappointed with either of these cans,but they are both "works
In progress" ( which they should'nt be for the money spent on them)
I've had the HE 6 a bit longer than the HD800 (I'd not listened to them much since
getting the 800s, but as recently as a month ago I started listening to them to make
comparisons.) The results have been pretty interesting.
Both sets of cans are using aftermarket cables & only listened to
through a HP amp (currently using a Burson Soloist)
Being slightly " obsessive / compulsive I don't think I spent much time listening to the HD800s "un-modified". After reading some comments from users in different places
I came across a reversible inner earcups mod (just type in HD800 mod on InnerFidelity)
that tames the brightness & evens out the freq. response a bit . Changing the stock cable
helps in these areas also. The HD800s are always going to be slightly bright ,but when you
even out some of the other frequencies they begin to sound pretty good.
I was kind of "taken back" when I swapped the HE 6s back in. They are a whole another
level of transparent sounding. While the HD800s might work through a players or receivers
HP jack (although probably with added "Bass" bloat & other discrepencies, so I never use
them) the HE 6s will be annemic sounding at best. While these cans may not have the soundstage depth of the HD800 the onstage sound of presence at a Classical Symphony
or Chamber performance has huge "wow" factor to them , depending on how good the recording is.
I don't think either of these cans will work that well with an Oversampling DAC (but I don't think
dynamic large scale music has much of a chance at sounding it's most transparent over sampled. It seems to me you might be changing the balance of micro instrumental contrast)
I forgot to add that the Burson Soloist (4wpc)'has no problem driving the HE 6
beautifully . I normally have the stepped attenuator set between 10 to 12 o'clock. (on the lowest gain setting) . At 1 o'clock the volume may be getting a bit loud
I don't know what some people might be listening to when they suggest that 4wpc might not be enough . (Probably something "horrid" like your average poorly produced studio recorded
popular music ) (shame on you people who torture your music systems with mediocre recordings, that's what your iPhones are for)
HD-800's don't over emphasize the bass IMO.
If you're watching a sporting event on TV and the athletes are wearing headphones (sponsorships), you probably want to stay away from those.
can i ask which headphones you have / use ???
I do not own the hd-800 nor the lcd-2, and there are apparently no vendors locally to audition either as the manufacturers never responded to my inquiry about local vendors.
Almost without doubt, every review from users on the lcd 2 i read great bass, with slightly recessed treble
almost without doubt the reviews from HD-800 users I read extended, great soundstage, light on bass
By those 2 statements alone would serve to confirm your impressions, and they are the reasons i wont buy either without an audition
My current system is Schiit Bifrost Uber, connected to a single end pentode el84 amp, using Senn. HD-650
The 650 has a reputation as veiled with heavy bass, I dont hear that infact quite the opposite I would argue they depend on quality gear to shine and show there true potential
This is a link to my amp, I find it superbly musical, with great detail and clarity. It made the Biggest difference in sound, The dac just sort of cleaned everything up, while adding a touch of analog.
Interesting amp - I'll have to check that out.
I currently use the base Schiit amp/dac units and they sound great at the office with the HD650s.
I also have the Schiit Valhalla, it's a great amp and performs WAY above its price point, It just didnt have the juice IMHO to drive the 650 to its peak performance
I love my Schiit gear (valhalla, bifrost, modi) they are keepers as well, eventually I will get a pair of grados I think (leaning towards the gs1000i)and set up a second system, But that will have to wait for greener days
The SE84 is a no brain'er for me, it also has the option of using speakers (BONUS) and I have been a SET nut for a long time, I love the 45 triode so sweet and lush, but lacks a little on the bass and maybe a very little bit warm, This is my second single end pentode amp and both times they were exceptional amps
With headphones i get to save a ton of money, with SET on open air speakers I was forced to Bi-Amp in order to get reasonable bass reproduction. No worry on headphones 3 WPC will make the ears beg for mercy
Very good point about 3wpc (& we're talking about "tube" wpc here) should make just about
any set of HPs "sing"
The ampandsound SE84 appears to be an "amp of choice" with any of the Sennheisers.
Hmmm...... More than likely it will also work with inefficient HPs like my HE 6s. ( I seriously
don't buy some of the estimations of just how powerful of an amp is needed to drive the
HE 6s sufficiently. I have at least 70% of the available gain available on my 4wpc HP amp
at any given time.) (just what the "$&@:" are they listening to & at what volume level ?)
Not sure what they are listening to, but I can tell you I listen to a lot of acoustic singer / songwriter, some jazz, some classic rock. I also love some blues (Muddy Waters, John lee Hooker, etc...)If you want a REAL TREAT for your ears throw on The Healer, or Folk Singer thru this ampsandsound. I would find it hard to believe they could sound any better, I was stunned.
I am not prone to pushing my opinions, I like what I like, and typically don't concern myself with others views, But this amp and the builder Impressed the hell out of me. I cant stop listening and singing it's praises
Edits: 02/27/14
This is an old problem. Where it's loud on the volume control doesn't necessarily mean anything power-wise. If 10 or 11 is as loud as you listen, it's quite possible that 12 is where the amp clips the waveform. Sometimes it doesn't mean that you've only used 30 or 40% of the power available. It depends on how the designer implemented the volume control. I see this example all the time on the Asylum. For me, ideally, the amp should clip at about 5 o'clock on the dial to get the widest possible use out of the control. IMHO.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
If there is a complaint I have about my Burson Soloist it would be the stepped attenuator
volume control. For the wide dynamics music I listen to (just about always) the "steps" are'nt
gradual enough.
What is the point of implementing this type of volume control if you are constantly over or under shooting the most suitable volume for any particular recording. In order to head off
any "ear fatigue" that a long listening session might bring on , I tend to settle for the lower
step than what may be ideal
I kick myself in the butt every time I think about not ordering the amp I was interested in
a few years back from Steve Deckert (Decware) . I have a feeling that at some point I'll
do just that.
I had the same problem with a standard line/phono preamp from Atma-Sphere. It was truly wonderful sounding but the detentes were really big and almost never in the right place for preferred listening. It's the main reason I don't like stepped attenuators and won't have them anymore.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Edits: 02/27/14
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