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In Reply to: RE: CD transport - newbie advice sought posted by zacster on May 08, 2024 at 05:50:14
Obviously, most folks are switching to some form of streaming, so your advice is noted and appreciated.
I used a high quality streaming device when auditioning an amp recently and found it detestable. That's just me, but I really couldn't stand it. Plus, I don't like wireless devices.
So it's highly unlikely that streaming is in my future. But never say never, right?
But again, your response is very much appreciated.
Thanks.
Follow Ups:
Or so it seems to me. However, the vast majority of my own listening these days is ALSO via streaming, and, as others have said about their own systems, my set up is not of the wireless persuasion! ;-)
Anyway, please consider this post a friendly invitation to check out WIRED streaming (I subscribe to both Qobuz and Apple Music) - I suspect you may be much more impressed with it than you've been up until now (with wireless), and, as others have noted, the increase in listening choice is nothing short of astounding.
So it isn't just me. Based on the reaction of some inmates, I thought I'd wandered into a fist fight over cables at General.I don't like streaming as a source for listening to music on my modest high-end system, but stream away, everybody else.
I also don't like pineapple on pizza or okra.
Guess I'm a real weirdo.
Edits: 05/10/24
Was I harsh? Just honest I thought.I get the Golden Ears of those who poo-poo the cheap streaming. I mean, I can't hear cable differences, so who am I to say that they can't hear differences between a dedicated transport/dac and a low cost streamer? BUT, it's the dismissal of the opportunity to sample the music I don't get. I mean, my current favorite Sibelius symphony set is by Hannu Lintu and the Helsinki Philharmomic. Know how I first heard it? YouTube! I was later able to listen to all of them via a classical music subscription service BEFORE I plunked down $120 for the BluRay set (the only hard copy source for it, plus another $150 for a computer BluRay drive) avoiding the $$$ of the many other disappointing purchases I've historically made. How do you turn down MORE MUSIC for literal pennies?
I've been streaming for years. I always say the SB Touch my family gave me as a gift is the greatest audio "purchase" of my life.
Oh, and I did spend quite a bit on an SACD player recently, so I still spin some discs as well.
Edits: 05/10/24
Of course, that's just IMHO anyway! ;-)
Where in my post was there any indication that I dismissed the idea of sampling new music?
Since I can stream music on my computer, it is possible for me to sample a huge amount of music, should I choose to subscribe to a streaming service. In the past I've downloaded many hundreds of mp3 files for use on my computer and an mp3 player. So investing in high-end gear just to sample new music doesn't seem like much of a justification for the cost.
The fact is that I don't like the procedure for choosing music when streaming. I don't like scrolling through a menu. Why is that sad? It's just different, isn't it?
I like the simplicity of glancing over a line of CDs and picking the one that appeals to me, especially when I don't always know what music I'm in the mood for.
I am baffled that some people interpreted my merely stating a personal preference as an attack on those who like a new form of media for listening to music.
Has it gotten to the point in this country that unless we are in lock step with everyone else that there is something wrong with us? Where have you gone, Joe Dimaggio? The same place simple respect and tolerance have, apparently. That seems sad to me.
And I too am just being honest. Believe me, I bear you no ill will, Sibelius. Heck, Finlandia still gets my blood pumping no matter how many times I hear it.
Ok, I think I've got you now after reading your follow ups. And I'm pretty sure I said each to their own taste somewhere!
Well, you used the word "detestable", which is kind of loaded, but didn't specify the menu experience, not the sound quality. I agree, if all I had was the menu on my SB Touch/LMS "app" it wouldn't be the greatest way to view and select music. Using Qobuz via ROON is a whole 'nother level though. I have a teeny MB Pro screen and it gives me all I want, someone like Abe Colliins here with the monster screen can see his collection from across the room!
I've got 2 bad knees and 2 bad eyes. It's really hard for me to get up and go over to my CD collection (somewhere between yours and Mali's in quantity) select a disc and then go to the system, put it in, take it out afterwards...so even for discs I have in my collection I just use the streamer. Yes, I could rip etc, but I've had little luck with the results (getting ACCURATE meta-data, etc.) and Qobuz is pretty flawless. The only album they haven't had (so far) is the Lintu/Sibelius I mentioned (but for 1 track from The Legends), and that's too bad, it is superb!
Oh, and for ME anyway, listening on the big system tells me much more about the music than through my crappy MB Pro speakers, or even headphones plugged into it.
Now, tell me more about those Anti-Cables, quale et la differenza between levels 1, 2, 3 & 4? I need (yes wife, need, I'm relocating speakers and I need a new 10 or 12 ft. pair). What's a good spot to land in that lineup for someone that isn't a cable freak (hey, no insult meant to cable freaks) and can't discern much difference between cables? Guess you can add two bad ears to the knees and eyes. I think I looked at them and they weren't crazy expensive, and I don't think I've heard a bad word about them around here.
Have a great weekend, I see you're in SoCal, I'm here up North where it's going to be a bit blistering for several days.
Sibelius -
Nice to know we're not in any conflict. You have your reasons why CDs don't work as well for you now and also understand my preference for "perfect sound forever".
You're right. Detestable was a bit loaded, and I wondered about using it at the time. It would also have helped for me to give details as to why the word was used.
The display on the streamer I used was a bit similar to what you show, but I prefer what you see on your screen. I just don't like sifting through so many choices. I tend to eat the same things and that applies to listening. Once I find a recording I like, it tends to become the go-to version, even though I tend to have multiple versions of classical works. For pop music, Billy Joel is Billy Joel and no one else will do.
As for the AntiCable speaker wires, they are highly recommended. Dollar for dollar a real bargain. Given your description, for a second system, two seems to fit the bill. For the price, Level 2 would give your system a boost without boosting the cost as much. Would the Level 3 sound better? Probably, but I wouldn't spend the money if I were setting up a second system. The Level 2 wires aren't as stiff, which can be a benefit, depending on where the system is going. Hope that helps.
The main reason I initially tried the Level 2 speaker wires was due to the fact that the AntiCables can be different lengths to each speaker. One of my speakers is about 4 feet away and the other is 12. With cables that have to be of the same length, it makes for a problem of what to do with the extra 8 feet on one side.
Where are you in NorCal? I'm in Palm Springs, but lived several years near Mt. Shasta and in Chico.
Thanks for the comments.
Merry listening to all and to all a good night.
Bingo !!
Conflicts, nah, just appreciate civilized conversations about trying to get the most out of our music and equipment. I think it's great we all have options that give us opportunities. Heck, long ago I even bought a REALLY (for the time anyway) expensive TT and cart. Was convinced that was the way to go for pure music. It was, for awhile, but that takes some serious dedication and effort, and two babies later I had neither. Now it sits under a layer of thick dust, waiting to be sold or traded off!
I like the album display I get with ROON, it gives me the feel of handling those big record covers with all the liner notes easy to see. One of the things I never cared for about CD's was the teeny print that seems to get smaller and smaller. Sometimes I envy the rock and jazz guys, you're right BJ is BJ, and Coltrane is well a singularity, but hundreds of different versions of Beethoven's Symphony no. 7...it's intimidating. But that's exactly why I like the streaming option, I can usually tell within the first few bars if it's my cuppa'. Opera is even faster, I don't care for singers that don't measure up to my image of the role. I mean, a rotund 50 year old soprano isn't the best performer to play Adina, the sexy siren in L'elisir D'amour, or the sultry Tosca, just doesn't work for me.
So good to learn about those cables. It's actually my primary system I'm moving around. Going from a Brit style compact location to a more spread out, and hopefully more satisfying situation. (Doing some experimentation before I decide to spend a good chunk of change on new bigger speakers) I looked em' up, and two different lengths is EXACTLY what I need for the space, one 10-12' and another, where the other speaker and amp are located, about 4'. Now I'd never mention that over on cables, they'd run me out with my a$$ flaming and beaten to a pulp, so it's good to get info from those, well, less "enthusiastic" if you will about equipment, etc. I mean that as a compliment by the way.
I'm up in Silly Valley, for a few more years at least. I've been to Shasta many times, so much more beautiful FILLED! Never made it to Chico, but my Grandparents had freinds with the ubiquitous almond orchard the region is famous for. Guess if you're in PS you are used to the heat. I melt, and no A/C in my house, maybe this year we'll put it in, of course I say that every year about this same time!
If the wires are for your main system, then it would be a matter of cost. The Level 2 are really good and should take your system up a notch or two. Given that the Level 3s are twice as much, are they worth it? Is the sound twice as good? No. But was double the cost worth it to me? Yes. The improvement offered by Level 3s is not subtle. It is immediate and obvious.But let me emphasize that the Level 2s are clearly worth putting in a system. And since you have the same situation as I do, with the extreme variation in length, I can hardly recommend the AntiCables enough.
Paul Spelt is a great guy and really knows his stuff. He said that with the AntiCables the difference in cable length would make no difference, and he was right. So feel free to e-mail or call to get any questions you might have before you buy. They offer a try-out period, which is the only reason I took a chance on them, so you can hardly go wrong.
Regarding termination, they recommend the banana plugs, and so do I. Mine have spades, which turned out to be difficult to fit on the large posts of my speakers.
Thanks for the compliment on the "enthusiasm". It all depends on what an individual's ears prefer. Nothing else, despite any quibbling on the Forums.
I believe there are a lot of bargains in the high-end world, including AntiCables. A system doesn't have to cost tens of thousands of dollars to be thrilling. One good high-end dealer where I used to hang out had a system in the main listening room that cost $100k or more. I listened several times to it, then went home to my sub-$10k system and was just as satisfied.
As for the Met, I find the wild enthusiasm of the audience odd many times because to my ear it is completely unwarranted. Maybe they just want something to cheer about to justify the cost of the tickets.
For years I took voice lessons from a fabulous teacher, who got me to sing arias, so that gives me a pretty good background to judge voices. Whatever happened to bel canto? So often these days there is too much warbling for my taste. That said, I regard the Met broadcasts as a cultural treasure and hope they continue for decades to come.
Finally, a close friend, with whom I've lost contact, lived for years up in the Glorified Sand area, first in Palo Alto then in Redwood City. His ventures into high-end audio helped get me started.
Please let me know if you get the AntiCables and what you think.
Edits: 05/12/24
According to cut-throat you are a fool.I have over 6000 Cds and have more than I can do to listen to them without roaming around on the streaming services, so I'm a fool, too.
Edits: 05/09/24
First of all most all of us that are dedicated to using streamers are not using wireless for the streamers. All are directly connected to the Home Network and Audio gear with Hard Wires. And 'detestable' sounding? - Do you really think that all people streaming are satisfied with detestable sound? You really don't even understand the basics of streaming, so trying to justify why you won't try it is pretty obvious.
Streaming when set up properly is indistinguishable from CDs. Provided they are set up properly and the comparison is a 'Fair One' That's why a lot of us here have gotten rid of our CD libraries. Your test was not even close to a fair comparison.You don't know what you don't know. And as I said in my original post to you, that you can add a streaming device which is just as high quality as the one you tried for less than $100. (They all work well, and the DAC is the important piece).
You don't have to get rid of your CDs and can run the Streamer and CD Player side by side. So, there really is no good reason not to try it. And passing up a Music Library to add 50 Million tracks of Music for $15 a month, is just plain foolish.
Edits: 05/09/24
I'm using my wifi for streaming. I don't have wired internet in my house. We have no control of anything coming off the internet, I doubt the wifi vs. wired on the last 10 feet will make any difference. Let's not confuse wifi with wireless though. Most wireless setups use bluetooth, a whole different low bandwidth tech. My wifi is gigabit and has enough bandwidth to stream anything you can throw at it.
Main system is hard wired, but now with AT&T gigabit fiber, I get 120-140 Mbps both ways in the semi-attached garage where the RPi3 lives. Playback of 96/24 content is instantaneous upon selection.
In the family room where I stream movies using LMS, I get > 300 Mbps. :)
Apparently my writing wasn't clear. First, the music streaming was at a high end dealer, so you can bet that it was first rate. The sound of the music was excellent. There was no difference to my ears between CDs and the music that was streamed. I had no complaint about the sonic quality, and I know enough about streaming to know it's considered better quality than CDs (with the right setup and source).
I also clearly understand the basics of streaming, since I regularly stream content from the internet. What made you come to that conclusion?
What was detestable to me was using the bloody thing. I found it obnoxious, which is within my right. Streaming music is not by definition obnoxious or detestable. But to me it was. So why should I invest time and energy in something I disliked so much? Surely you're not suggesting that because others like it so much that I must also. (I know. Don't call you Surely.)
As noted, I was extremely glad to get the experience. Streaming has replaced CDs the way CDs replaced vinyl in terms of popularity. It was a blessing to try a new media to see if I'd like it. And I didn't. I also don't like cooked beets.
Mali noted all the CDs in his(?) collection. Mine is a paltry 1000 or so, yet I too have enough music for the rest of this lifetime and well into the Great Beyond.
I had no idea that my comment would cause offense. My appreciation of the comment was clearly noted. And that stands.
Perhaps that clears things up. Let me know if it doesn't.
is spending more time listening than shuffling and/or transferring media from one system to another. Whether streaming from a service or your own local library. My collection is similar to yours with about 1100 titles mostly ripped from CDs but with quite a few 24 bit downloads.
I particularly enjoy putting it on random play to rediscover forgotten "old friends". Skip over what you don't want using your watch, phone or pad device.
BTW, my library fits on one of these used with an Oppo 103 in the HT system:
I'm not quite clear about your reference to "shuffling and/or transferring", but I'm not as sharp as I used to be.
As noted in another post, I can't stand scrolling through a menu. That's my biggest complaint about streaming or transferring CDs to files. But clearly, mine is a minority view these days.
It's an intriguing idea to use random play for discovering "old friends". Maybe I can do the same thing by using a blindfold and reaching for a CD.
Thanks for the comments.
There are lots of different ways to choose streaming music besides scrolling through endless lists. Most programs have a good search function that will quickly take you directly to the album, artist or song you're looking for. Most also have a "favorites" tag which you can organize in several ways -- date added, genre, alpha, etc. letting you skip all the material you don't care for.
One of my favorite things about streaming is the ability to quickly give a listen to new releases or albums recommended by others without having to buy a copy. Can't begin to tell you how many new-to-me artists and albums that I absolutely love that I've found this way. And, I can also quickly scratch a lot of stuff off my list that doesn't interest me without having to buy a CD. Lots of stuff doesn't last much past a 15 or 20 second listen. But, I also know that some people have no interest in finding anything new-to-them.
As for my local collection (about 60,000 tracks) I have those organized in a folder/subfolder format that I chose so I can walk through those much faster than I could ever get through my CD or LP collection.
But, that's the nice thing about this hobby -- lots of options and each of can pursue what makes us happy.
Yes, I agree that being able to preview a track is nice. I always like that when looking to buy a CD on line. Very few outlets have that feature anymore. ArkiveMusic used to but their catalog is a mere shadow of what it used to be, with no previews any more.
As you say, many options and to each his own. That's what surprised me about the tone of a number of the posts. I do find it interesting to know why you and others like streaming. It simply has no appeal to me, as stated before. No big deal either way as far as I'm concerned.
Thanks for the comments.
So sad what Arkivmusic has devolved into.For classical, if you aren't already familiar with them, try Presto Music. Since they are also a provider of streaming much of their catalog offers "samples", which is better than nothing! I've ordered from them several times and they are a good source for current catalog items, otherwise I buy used from Amazon.
And I think beets (reference to an above post of yours) taste like dirt, raw or cooked. My teen daughter LOVES them!
Currently streaming the live Met Opera radio broadcast of Puccini's Madama Butterfly.***
***What an OUTSTANDING performance. The Met announcers voices are trembling, can hear them crying. Wouldn't have heard it but for streaming!
Edits: 05/11/24
Thanks for the reminder. I had completely forgotten about Presto but find it was bookmarked as a source long ago.
Perhaps ArkivMusic was just a victim of bad business. Apparently, they couldn't sustain all the costs involved in maintaining the website, shipping, etc. Their new website with its partial catalogue just isn't the same, so I've never ordered anything from them since.
Are you familiar with Berkshire Record Outlet? Their prices are incredibly low. Half my classical collection or more is from them. Their catalog us good but not necessarily comprehensive. The bargains, however, more than make up for that. The prices can be so low that I've often gambled on unknown artists or music and have been delighted.
I do the blindfold reach for CDs from time to time when in the mood. I'll put one on and often don't even recognize the music. I'll be enjoying something very much, look at the label, and see it's something I wouldn't have put on voluntarily by a long shot. So it goes.Don't be surprised by my not recognizing the music since I have a very diverse collection of many obscure works. I'm talking classical, obviously. When I listen to the "unknown" CD it's fun to try to figure out what it is.
Edits: 05/10/24
I may give that a try, since several posts have mentioned it. Might be fun, although there are still some CDs in their wrappers, so identifying the music might be a real challenge.
I'm not quite clear about your reference to "shuffling and/or transferring", but I'm not as sharp as I used to be.To play a CD/SACD:
1. Go find it. Which may or may not be quick and easy. I used to alphabetize mine but still must locate where they're stored (used to be closet in listening room) then pull a jewel case out in order to see/verify what's on it.
2. Remove disk from case.
3. Carry to player.
4. Open player drawer.
5. Place disk inside.
6. Close drawer.
7. Use remote or push play.
8. Upon completion, roughly repeat steps 1-6 in reverse order.If you have more than one system like I do, then step #1 might require more travel time to access. Or, burn CDR copies for convenience as I once did for the garage system.
With local digital library (mine lives on NAS) or streaming service:
1. Run app from watch, phone or pad.
2. Select fastest way to locate intended content-by folder, artist, genre, date, new release, playlist, random song mix, search text if you're not exactly sure which artist or album, from streaming service, etc.
3. Click play. There's nothing to redo upon completion.Different strokes for different folks.
It's an intriguing idea to use random play for discovering "old friends". Maybe I can do the same thing by using a blindfold and reaching for a CD.
There you go. You just have to do it lots of times! I'm able to refine the list by choosing from one or more genres for inclusion or exclusion (like test tracks or holiday music).
Edits: 05/10/24
I never thought about the steps before, so I guess they don't bother me. And at my age, getting up and down to change CDs represents much of the physical activity I might get in a day. Wonder if Richard Simmons thought of that for getting in shape.
Yep. Different strokes. That's what I like about audiophilia.
And at my age, getting up and down to change CDs represents much of the physical activity I might get in a day.
Exercise is a good thing. At 67, I get some of my "stand time" in listening in the garage. Saturdays are good for wifey and me to get in a long walk. :)
Qobuz I believe boasts of 100 million tracks.
And by the way, I'm more than happy with my Raspberry Pi-based streamer connected by wire to the network.
Sold my high-end Accuphase CD Player a few years ago. Got rid of all of my CDs too. With high quality streaming services and a properly setup system I don't miss the CD media clutter at all. My streamer isn't anything special but the DAC makes the biggest difference. My streaming setup sounds just as good if not better than the ole Accuphase CD that I retired.
Edits: 05/09/24
"Streaming when set up properly is indistinguishable from CDs"
Pretty much. My system is thus: Roon/Qobuz -- SBTouch OR USB Direct out of my MB Pro -- Marantz SA-Ki Ruby Internal DAC -- LTA Ultralinear + Integrated Amp -- Avalon Acoustics Symbol speakers. Not "ultimate high end", but not chicken feed either, call it a $20,000 system. Pretty indistinguishable for me.
"Passing up 50 Million tracks of Music for $15 a month, is just plain foolish."
Today I listened to Beyonce, Dasha, Eddie Vedder, Massive Attack and Ricardo Chailly's Mahler 1 (the only one of those I have a CD copy of). I guess some of us are more parochial in musical tastes and don't need anything new, well, kind of sad if you ask me, but a chacun son gout (French for whatevs).
Oh, I'm looking at that WiiM Amp for my TV, BECAUSE it also streams!
"This ain't Texas, we don't hold em'..."
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