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Hi, All,
I own a Marantz SA-11S1 SACD/CD player, and I have been thinking about what seems to me to be a simple way to switch between normal and inverted polarity...
The SA-11 has the usual unbalanced RCAs and also balanced XLR outputs (unused in my setup).
What I'm considering is leaving my usual unbalanced interconnects running to the usual preamp inputs for normal polarity, and then making up a set of interconnects to run from pin 1 (ground) and 2 ("cold") of the XLR connectors and run into an unused preamp input for inverted polarity.
(Note that Marantz balanced output connectors are wired "backward" from the usual standard, that is they are "pin 3 hot, pin 2 cold".)
I could then switch between normal and inverted polarity by simply switching between preamp inputs.
The Marantz manual does advise that only one set of outputs should be connected at a time, but only one set of interconnects would be connected for each preamp switch position.
Would this scheme work?
Any advice or comments?
Thanks!
Ken
Follow Ups:
Hi, Again,
I got hold of a schematic for the SA-11!
As I deduced from the photos I've seen of the inside of the SA-11, there ARE six HDAM modules in the analog output stage. One of the modules drives the non-inverting side of the balanced output, and another drives the inverting side.
However, the other four HDAMs are used, two per channel, to implement the analog filter stages for the output stage, in the same way that op-amps are used in many other players. (I had previously assumed two HDAMs for the RCA outputs and four HDAMs for each of the R and L "hot" and "cold" balanced outputs.)
In the SA-11 the "hot" center contact of the RCA jack is directly hard-wired to pin 3 of the balanced XLR socket. The outer ground of the RCA jack, pin 1 of the XLR jack, and the socket/shield of the XLR jack are all connected directly to chassis ground.
This means that the inverting side (pin 2) of the output circuit, which is otherwise identical to the non-inverting side, is simply left floating when the unbalanced RCA outputs are used.
So, If I make up an interconnect with an XLR plug on one end (connected "hot" to pin 2 and ground to pin 1) and a normally-wired RCA plug on the other end I will have a nice inverted signal! There should be no problems at all leaving the positive side of the circuit floating!
I should be good to go, and will be able to change polarity by simply switching between the inputs!
Ken
I just tried this with a Raysonic CD128 CD player which has both single-ended and "balanced" (XLR) outputs. I put together a cable using the XLR outs, in the way described, switched the input on my linestage and heard ... silence. A far more technically knowledgeable friend was here at the time (we had discussed the concept and wiring earlier) and allowed as how the Raysonic clearly does not offer true balanced outputs.
Nice theory, though. Hope it works for you.
4
Well, what do you think, Clark? Shed some light on the subject. Or some darkness, since you seem determined to obscure the whole subject as much as posssible.
if Clark has a definition. He has rejected all conventions, but offers nothing in response. In dissecting his responses and various statements, I have concluded that he has no definition and hence uses that fact to 'waffle' as to what is correct. It may be partially doe to the fact that he may have limited technical expertise in attempting to define a polarity convention (nothing personal here, as we all have limitations).
Still it is extremely frustrating to have anyone so outspoken but yet so ambiguous about the subject. It does not serve the advancement of audio very well at all.
Stu
nt
8^) Stu
s
... you've been cluttering up AA for quite a while. Meant, one assumes, to reassert your primacy in the polarity area in the face of various attempts to simplify or illuminate the matter and make useful sense of it. You will tell us, no doubt, that it is impossible to actually define "normal" and "inverted" (or whatever) polarity and so we should pretty much give it up and look to the master for whatever grudging guidance might be forthcoming. Please, please prove me wrong :-)
...were they not so gratifyingly wrong, therefore merely amusing.
Perhaps some day, if you keep the eyes and ears open -- especially the latter -- you'll be rewarded as many of us have, with a knowledge of polarity.
Any attentive listener can do it without me, just as I did it without help.
So, enough with your foolish animus already; go, learn.
clark
He has your number. 'Nuff said.
Then judge for yourselves.
clark
Look at your actions and replies. No answers, no solutions other than "try reversing your leads and see what you like." You have smeared everyone who has attempted to help your "cause", berating them but at the same time refusing to commit yourself. Perhaps you like screaming into the night, and you certainly seem to have isolated yourself from the vast majority of members, both those who hear polarity issues and those who do not. You simply sidestep any serious inquiry by complaining about persecution, dogging any concise answers.
We still are awaiting, with bated breath, your definition of correct polarity, or perhaps what you are saying is that there is no correct polarity. If so, then polarity is a non issue and you need not waste any more bandwidth upon the subject.
Those who endeavor to engage in honest research and ask serious questions, receive one liners and insults. Just look at your treatment of Truthseekerprime, who is on to something and has spent serious thought on the issues. He even admitted to an error in his statements, and publicly admitted it.
If you wish to to be a literal one man band, so be it, but do not carp on the subject without enlightening us mere mortals with at least some tangible knowledge. Any other action would be akin to pissing into the wind.
We await your definition, as that would be a very good first step. One would like to believe after two decades of thought on the subject, you ought to have a nice concise definition, especially since no one else seems to have one.
Stu
f
8^)Just further proof of the truth. Running and dodging again, enh? It was your chance to prove me totally incorrect.
Stu
"If everything I do is wrong, then the opposite must be correct."
- George Castanza
"It's the Even/Odd rule." - May Belt
Clark has already said everyone else is wrong. Is that the point you wished to press home? Somehow I doubt it, but then I like good 'Ole George, even if he is the ultimate non committer. Your post certainly brings up many parallels.
8^)
Stu
Yeah, if I read what Clark seems to imply, that would be correct. If so, I do not know why it should be an issue, following that train of thought.
I believe the quote here is: " If I never say what is correct, I can never be wrong."
8^)
Stu
I have a Sa-11A and have tried to compare the balanced connection to unbalanced. Unfortunately, you can't have both connected to the player at the same time. I get no output from the balanced with the unbalanced connected. Funny tho, I did get the unbalanced output from the player when a different (much older)pair of XLR cables were connected.
You might want to consider this:
If you check your owner's manual, or surf the net a bit, you'll find that, for some reason Marantz wires their balanced outputs "backwards" from the usual standard.
The usual "pro" standard, at least in the US, is "pin 2 hot" and "pin 3 cold". Marantz wires the balanced outputs as:
Pin 1 ground
Pin 2 "cold" (negative or inverted polarity)
Pin 3 "hot" (positive polarity)
The unbalanced RCA jacks are connected normally, with positive/non-inverted polarity)
So... If you connect both the RCA inputs and the balanced inputs to the preamp at the same time (to a preamp that follows the usual standard), the positive (unbalanced) input might cancel out the inverted balanced input to give a net zero output.
I suspect this is why Marantz recommends not connecting both inputs at the same time.
Anyway, you might want to try your experiment again using a balanced interconnect cross-wired with pin 2 and 3 switched at one end.
Also,check that older cable that you say "worked". Check that it isn't wired incorrectly, that is with pin 2 at one end connected to pin 3 at the other. that would be really interesting, and would "prove" my theory!
Incidently, I have seen reviews of the SA-11 where the SA-11 was compared to another player using the balanced outputs, or the where the sound of using the RCA outputs was compared to the balanced outputs. Although the reviewers reported a difference in sound, none mentioned taking the inverted polarity of the SA-11's balanced outputs into consideration!!
Ken
I actually had my Zu Gede XLR pins wired to correct for the Marantz polarity inversion. That likely explains why I get zero output when they and the RCA's are both connected! The "older" XLR was wired normally and produced output. FYI - I could not tell the difference between the two - I originally thought the RCA output was over-riding the older XLR output, but after your comment I'm probably not understanding the issue correctly.
I have a Raysonic CD128 CD player with both balanced and unbalanced ouputs. I have a pair of Neutric XLR/RCA adapters which I use to compare interconnects. Using two pairs of outputs from the Raysonic I can switch at the preamp and, with identical ICs, the sound is identical.
So, can I rewire a pair of ICs hot-to-ground (at one end, of course) and change polarity by switching inputs at the preamp? Be kind. I'm a technical illiterate, if you haven't guessed. :-)
See my response to mcondo and his thread "May not work.."
The balanced output on the SA-11 is already wired backwards!
If you switch the wires between pins 2 and 3 at one end of a balanced interconnect you will simply invert the polarity of the connected component. The "pros" do it all the time.
Of course, you can't just switch the wires in an unbalanced RCA cable, as you would "ground out" the signal.
My preamp only accepts unbalanced inputs, so I can't connect a balanced input directly.
What I would like to do is create a cable with a normal RCA connector at one end and an XLR balanced connector at the other end.
The RCA plug would be wired normally, the ground wire at the XLR end would be connected to pin 1 (ground), and the "hot" wire would go to pin 2 of the XLR. (Confusing, I know, but pin 2 of the Marantz is actually the inverted output!)
I would leave pin 3 (non-inverted) floating.
Since the balanced output voltage of the Marantz is exactly twice the unbalanced output voltage, My theory is that by connecting the two outputs to separate preamp inputs that I could invert polarity by simply switching between the two inputs!
Ken
The 2 will sound different as most Japanese players convert from unbalanced to balanced with opamps, or vice versa. Check it out first by looking at the output configuration
The SA-11 uses no op amps; the output drivers are all discrete "HDAM" modules.I don't have access to a schematic, of course, but if you look at a photo of the inside of the SA-11 it appears that there are SIX of the HDAMs present (occupying the rear 3/4 of the circuit board along the right side of the player).
I would assume (I know, I know...) that there is one HDAM for the R and L unbalanced outputs and one for each of the R and L non-inverted and inverted outputs (six total).
Also, see my response to mcondo's thread ("May not work..") above.
Ken
Depending on how your preamp "terminates" the inputs that are not in use. The marantz might not be as happy driving the lower impedance, and it may alter the frequency response.
:-)
I use a conrad-johnson Premier Three preamp.
The Premier Three has unbalanced RCA inputs only. All unconnected inputs are connected only to the input switch, that is, are floating. The grounds of all inputs are connected to the common/chassis ground.
As long as I'm careful not to inadvertently connect one of the "hot" leads to ground I think my scheme should work!
My plan is to create a cable with a normal RCA plug at one end and an XLR balanced connector at the other end.
The RCA plug would be wired normally. The ground wire at the XLR end would be connected to pin 1 (ground), and the "hot" wire would go to pin 2 of the XLR. (Confusing, I know, but pin 2 of the Marantz is actually the inverted output!)
I would leave pin 3 (non-inverted) floating.
Since the balanced output voltage of the Marantz is exactly twice the unbalanced output voltage, My theory is that by connecting the two outputs to separate preamp inputs that I could invert polarity by simply switching between the two inputs!
Ken
As long as the unselected input is "open", then it shouldn't cause any problems.
:-)
RCA grounds for inputs on 'most" preamps are common. He should disconnect the unbalanced out from the CDP when trying the balanced. Also if the CDP uses a three prong plug their "might" be a hum issue. Too many variables to do anything but try unless he has and can read a schematic. Some players are truly balanced and some just have balanced connectors.
ET
Both the C-J Premier Three and the Marantz SA-11 have two-prong AC cords, and I've oriented both for lowest chassis potential.The SA-11 definitely has a true balanced output.
Hum should not be an issue unless there is some kind of ground loop set up between the two interconnects...
And I definitely can read a schematic! Anyone got one for the SA-11?
ken
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