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In Reply to: RE: Some serious questions concerning audio cables posted by geoffkait on February 27, 2022 at 04:24:25
Cable direction matters because of the extrusion process by which metal stock gets pulled or drawn into wire.
Most people know that the hair on violin bows is from horse tails.
Very few people know that the hair hanks used for hairing bows are arranged so that half the hairs lie North-South, and the other half lie South-North, and the goal is that they be as close to evenly spaced and assorted as possible.
That's because horsehair makes sound only in one direction!!!
The "cuticle" part of the hair shaft is made up of overlapping scales of keratin, layered like shingles on a roof. If you pull the hair strand across the violin string "upside down," that is, starting at the frog of the bow with the fanny/rump/rear end of the strand at the frog/bottom end of the bow, and pull the bow down, you get no sound, because the overlapping scales just bump past the string, rather than catching on it.
However, once you have pulled the bow all the way down and begin pushing the bow up ("up-bow"), then the exposed edges of the scales catch and release, making the string vibrate.
That's why to make sound in both directions, bows have to have half the bow hair oriented "upside down."
The scales of the horsehair shaft are analogous to the crystals of copper metal that have been drawn through a die. The crystals go from a randomized 3D orientation to a more aligned orientation that IMHO influences the "Skin Effect" of the conductor.
Even for non-magnetic/non-ferrous metals and alloys, the cryogenic processing does tend to relieve internal stresses. (However, if you cryo-treat some plastics, they fairly explode, as the water trapped inside expands.)
My experience (I have used cryogenic processing since Ed Meitner introduced it to me in the mid-1990s) has been that any cable-termination process, whether mechanical crimping or thermal soldering, introduces stresses, and those stresses actually create what I call "Nano Diodes(TM)."
And, the property of a Diode is that current flows through it more easily in one direction than another. You don't want that in a cable.
Of course, if you believe that CD Error Correction Cures All Ills, then you have wasted your time reading this!
Anyone can question my conclusions; but you cannot say that I don't have lots of experience; or, that I have failed to think these issues through.
BTW, my friends at Wilson Benesch found out that the actual type of tool steel (Austenitic vs. Martensite) used in their loudspeaker SPIKES made a difference in sound, and you will never guess the easiest way to increase the proportion of the desirable crystal in a steel billet!
amb,
john
Follow Ups:
the analogy doesn't work. The physical property, friction is well documented with hair directionality. There is no analogus property to crystal structure in wire and audio signal directionality. Audio signals aren't directional. Neither is the conductivity of any wire.
Learn to spell. The word is analogous.
It's getting a bit creepy at this point how you feel compelled to respond to just about every post I make now.
Why you posted on this thread we'll never know. Since you have no idea what you're talking about on just about any subject except hair. I started this thread for people who are actually curious or have something to contribute, not trolls. Begone!
Edits: 06/18/22
It's funny that you have to make shit up about me to try to insult me but all I have to do is tell the truth about who and what you are and it's even worse.
Nt
Only two statements are true IMO. Dirty connector does imped sound. Silver vs copper does sound different and I do not know why. Silver is more harsh sounding, but can wake up a soft sounding amp/speaker.
Silver even more than copper must be cryogenically treated to sound it's best. That's why so many high end cable manufacturers employ cryogenic treatment during the manufacturing process. A non cryo'd cable simply can't compete in the high end marketplace. And the conductors must be in the correct direction for optimum results.
Edits: 01/17/23
@geoffkait
Thank you for taking on these luddites. Anyone not sitting on their ears can confirm that the casting method has influence on the sound and that silver and copper sound different. Anyone who knows a bit of hysics knows that random orientation and allignment of molecules create different electric fields around cables. And finally: directionality is a consequence of both and very real, even if you replace a fuse by a copper bar.
The absoluteness and vehemence with which people advocate preconceived notions rather than empirically establishing facts never ceases to amaze.
You're more likely to create a 'nano diode' with copper....which when oxide IS a semiconductor....
Too much is never enough
Which is completely meaningless because that diode is in parallel with direct metal to metal connections. Do you know the band-gap voltage of copper oxide in a semiconducting state? Do you know you must be near/above this for anything to happen? oy vey
All I know is that copper diodes were made and used many years ago.
We had a few samples in the 'company museum'. They also made Selenium rectifiers and by the time I left we were making a well regarded line of FREDs.....
What happens IF copper oxide is between good copper and the 'other' connection....say in an interconnect?
Copper oxide will form everywhere......it won't stop at the 'edge' but migrate under.....
Silicon does the same thing, forming a 'birds beak' during early fabrication steps.....
Agreed....IF in Parallel? But if not? Copper is not self passivating so will apparently keep 'growing'.
Too much is never enough
I don't know how copper conductors are going to oxidize, one assumes the jackets containing them are air tight.
The jackets are NOT 'vacuum sealed'...and DO admit air.
And besides? The concern is at the ENDSs where they are exposed / crimped or under the odd wire nut in the J-Boxes in your house.....
And yes, give it long enough and starting at the clipped ends, the conductors inside the jacket WILL oxidize.
The real question is? Why WOULDN'T they?
If I could add a drawing I don't want to make in the FIRST place? you'd see that a bundle of wires has spaces between the round conductors in which air travles the LENGTH of the cable.....
Too much is never enough
I doubt any oxidation of copper - even if did occur - would change how wire directionality affects the sound. Plus I don't believe your characterization of copper that oxides acts like a diode. How bout them apples?
You know, I've learned over the years that even IF I don't believe something, it can still be true.
Copperoxide was used as a stacked recitifier material.....In the age of similar stacked Selenium....
I suspect such oxidezed connections MAY have an effect on the very lowest voltage circuits.....Maybe
either MC or MM phono connections. But until YOU give the OK, that's just speculation.
Any dissimilar metals 'joined' can have a thermoelectric voltage generated which can ALSO effect
such very low voltage circuits.....
Too much is never enough
I didn't see the word diode mentioned anywhere in that article, maybe I missed it. :-)
That's a good answer about why the direction of horse hairs in a violin bow makes a difference, but I'm confused about the direction of wire in an analog interconnect. The analog audio signal is alternating so I can't see why the wire direction would make a difference. The horse-hair analogy doesn't seem to apply to an audio interconnect since the audio signal is alternating back-and-forth.
If wire direction actually makes a difference, it would make more sense to construct both conductors of an audio interconnect with stranded wire in which half of the strands go in one direction and the other half go in the other direction. This way the alternating audio signal would be conducted by half the strands during the positive cycle and the other half during the negative cycle.
What am I missing?
Thanks!
John Elison
What are you missing? ... people at the other end of the conversation who know how electricity works mainly.
However, the fact the signal is AC has nothing to do with directionality. It can only be directional because it is AC. Every cable has minor aspects of directionality, but unless you have sensitive equipment and are testing in the MHz-GHZ range, it won't matter.
Actually, you're wrong. The fact that the wires are in an AC circuit doesn't prevent or negate the wires from being directional. Both wires + and - should be controlled for directionality from the beginning. When the wires are both in the correct orientation, the signal that travels towards the speakers will sound better than if the wires were reversed. The line of least resistance you could say. We don't care about the signal headed away from the speaker on either wire + and - since that doesn't affect the sound. Same logic goes for fuses. The fuse wire should be inserted such that when the signal travel thru the fuse wire in the direction of the speakers the best sounding direction should be.....wait for it...in the direction of the speakers. You can ignore the signal when it's travel away from the speakers.
Edits: 03/04/22
> However, the fact the signal is AC has nothing to do with directionality.
Now, I'm really confused. How do you define directionality? I always thought it meant the direction of current flow, but I guess that can't be your definition.
Thanks!
John Elison
"Directionality" is defined as the property of cables and wires that they sound better when inserted into the audio system one way vs the other. Directionality of a cable is determined as it comes off the spool and maintained during the manufacturing process by some but not all audio cable companies.But directionality goes beyond cables since it's a property of all wire. So fuses, internal speaker wiring, the wire in capacitors and transformers, HDMI cables, internal wiring in electronics, it's all directional,
We established a week or two ago on one of these threads that current doesn't flow in cables, technically speaking. The electrons don't really flow either. They wiggle back and forth at a high rate of frequency. Current is calculated by how many free electrons travel in the metal conductor at one time during their wiggle in one direction. Current is a scalar quantity and therefor has no velocity or direction. Are you still confused? :-)
Edits: 03/05/22 03/05/22
> We established a week or two ago on one of these threads that current doesn't flow in cables, technically speaking.
I think you're wrong about electron flow because if you take a battery and connect a wire between the positive and negative terminals, you will find that electrons will flow through the wire from negative to positive until the battery no longer has a difference in potential between the two terminals. Since all the extra electrons in the negative end of the battery move to the positive end of the battery, they must be flowing through the piece of wire connecting the two terminals.
In fact, current is defined as electron flow. One ampere of current is defined as 6.241 x 10 18 electrons flowing past a point in the wire every second.
Good luck,
John Elison
Battery is not AC, though, audio circuits are AC. Even in a DC circuit electrons travel extreme slowly, one meter per hour. So even in DC circuit its not correct to say they're "flowing."Thus, in audio circuits (AC) electrons just wiggle back and forth on both wires + and - at the instantaneous audio frequency, frequency range nominal 20 - 20k Hz. And the audio source produces the audio waveform and it's the *combination of two wires* + and - that produces the acoustic audio waveform via the speakers. To top it all off, as I calculated on one of these threads about a month ago, electrons move only about one millionth of an inch at a time during their rapid wiggle dance. Furthermore, free electron along each wire + and - net movement is zero.
Edits: 03/11/22 03/11/22
Posted by geoffkait (M) on March 11, 2022 at 15:07:24
In Reply to: RE: A few things posted by John Elison on March 11, 2022 at 14:24:36:
Battery is not AC, though, audio circuits are AC. Even in a DC circuit electrons travel extreme slowly, one meter per hour. So even in DC circuit its not correct to say they're "flowing."
Thus, in audio circuits (AC) electrons just wiggle back and forth on both wires + and - at the instantaneous audio frequency, frequency range nominal 20 - 20k Hz. And the audio source produces the audio waveform and it's the *combination of two wires* + and - that produces the acoustic audio waveform via the speakers. To top it all off, as I calculated on one of these threads about a month ago, electrons move only about one millionth of an inch at a time during their rapid wiggle dance. Furthermore, free electron along each wire + and - net movement is zero.
Finally!!
Now tell me again how the electrons carry the signal in the wire...
...
Finally? Are you out of mind? You've been wrong all along, and so are the sheep you were following all these years.The electric field that alternates direction along with the electrons' motion makes the speakers move. But the electric field is a result of electron motion, so which came first, the chicken or the egg? It depends on how you define the word "signal." Depends on how you define the word "flow," too. Words are just words, they mean different things to different people.
It's not difficult to see that cryogenically treating wire would reduce the clumping of metal crystal lattices, allowing free electrons to move along the x axis more easily and not get side-tracked, improving performance. It is also not very difficult to see that wire "directionality" plays a role - both + and - wires should be oriented such that their "best direction" is toward the speakers. We can ignore what happens in both + and - wires during the times electrons travel away from the speakers.
Going back to my original post, I'm actually implying by my questions is the "efficiency" of the electron motion determines everything that follows, the charge, the current, the voltage and the e and m fields. Thus, everything we can do to improve electron motion improves the sound. At the same time we want to minimize external influences on the electric field.
Edits: 06/04/22 06/04/22
So, what's your point?????
Furthermore, what difference does it make to anything including audio????
Did you sit in the back of class at school? Let's summarize,Current doesn't "flow," - current is calculated, it has no direction, it's a scalar quantity
Current doesn't change direction since it is a scalar quantity, same for voltage
The only thing that changes direction in an audio circuit is the electrons, on both wires + and -
Technically, the a Poynting vector does change direction, too, since it's a...uh, vector
Electrons move one direction on + wire and simultaneously the opposite direction on - wire, and vice versa
Electrons wiggle, but they don't flow in AC circuits (audio circuits)
Direction of wire determines the sound, all other things being equal
Wire is not physically or electrically symmetrical, thus the difference in sound
The electrons wiggle back and forth alternately on two wires + and -Now that we've established wire is directional, would it be too much of a stretch to say all wires in the audio system are directional and should be controlled for directionality? That means all rpt all wires, speaker cables, digital cables, HDMI a cables, internal speaker wires, internal electrinics wires, fuse, power cords, etc. If anyone disagrees, raise your hand.
The rate of alternation of electrons in the + and - wires is the instantaneous audio wavelength
Edits: 03/12/22 03/12/22 03/12/22 03/12/22
I don't think you or anyone else has established that wire is directional. It's just something you believe, but it has no basis in fact!
You're certainly welcome to believe anything you want, but your belief doesn't establish anything.
Happy listening!
John Elison
Stubborn as a mule, you don't even have any evidence wire isn't directional. You're the pseudo skeptic here, not me. A simple experiment will prove I'm right. Just reverse a fuse or interconnects or speaker cables. What are you afraid of? Have you given up? Catch up to the big boys!
Edits: 03/12/22 03/12/22
You should conduct a double blind ABX test. Then, nobody would ever argue with you. Of course, this assumes you can actually prove wire is directional in a double blind ABX test.
Perhaps an ABX test has already be conducted. If so, simply provide a link to the test results.
Thanks!
John Elison
Don't you know that negative results of any test, including a double blind ABX test, don't mean anything. Have you been napping all this time? Wake up and smell the coffee!Why do pseudo skeptics always demand proof using a double blind test? Yet they never ever do one themselves. Are they so lazy and uncurious? They won't even reverse interconnects, they won't lift a finger. They want someone else to do it and provide a link. Lol
Edits: 03/14/22
The positive results definitely mean something. If you can actually hear the difference in wire direction you can easily prove it beyond any shadow of a doubt with a double blind ABX test.
I suspect you already know you can't prove it, though!
Oh, well. Such is life!
I enjoy your pretzel logic. First you say wire directionality can't pass a blind test, now you say it can. Which is it, Mr. Smarty Pants? This discussion has run its course and can serve no purpose any more.
> This discussion has run its course and can serve no purpose any more.
I think it's wire directionality that's run its course and can serve no purpose. Nevertheless, you're right about this discussion.
Happy listening!
John Elison
I suspect it would be a good idea for to to find another hobby to get involved in. You've run your course on audio, perhaps macrame or model railroading would suit your skills better. Pseudo skeptics can only get so far. Good luck in your future hobby.
The coaxial cable was invented, mostly via pure math, by a British Post Office employee who was mostly self-taught.
But that did not stop Oliver Heaviside from independently inventing Vector Analysis Calculus as well as (IIRC) independently inventing the functional equivalent of the Laplace Transform.
The coaxial cable is one of the most elegant "invention stories" in technological history.
So, answer 1 is, coaxial cables are different from pairs of wires, whether flat or twisted.
Answer 2 is tha many electrical signals representing musical events are not symmetrical, either plus to minus, or left to right.
So, whether the correct phase gets the benefit of the smoother electrical path, does seem to matter.
I switched cable-fabrication subcontractors when the one I had could not be bothered to maintain proper directionality in XLRF/XLRM cables.
But, just the other day, someone who should have known better assured me that CD Error Correction takes care of all of that.
Not so.
I played the exact same music once for JA, first on an aluminum (pressed) CD and then on a 24-Kt Gold (pressed) CD, and he commented that he did not like living in a universe where such a detail made an audible difference... but he did hear the difference!!!
(And, I wrote about that for Stereophile, and JA had the good grace to publish it).
jm
That's not such a "small detail" since 24-Kt gold gold, even though it's so thin you can see through it, is a much better reflector of near infrared light than aluminum. The reason the Japanese SHM-CDs often sound superior to other CDs of the same music is because they use a more optically transparent clear layer, as it turns out polycarbonate is only about 91% transparent to light at that wavelength. Another "small detail."
Two wires are involved in AC circuits, so that means the signal on one wire goes in the direction of the speakers while the signal on the other wire goes in the opposite direction simultaneously. That's why both wires/cables should be controlled for direction, the signal will be going toward the speaker in the correct direction on both wires when the signal to going in that direction.It is the combination of the signal on both wires when it's going toward the speakers that is the audio waveform.
The signal that goes toward the speaker produces the sound, the signal that goes in the opposite direction doesn't affect the sound. So the *incorrect direction* for any wire or cable to away from the speaker. We don't care about the signal going in the opposite direction on either wire. This explains why you don't want half of stranded wires going in one direction and the other half of them going in the opposite direction. When the free electrons are moving in the "wrong direction" it's like stroking a porcupine's quills in the wrong direction.
That is also why fuses are directional; the signal goes through the fuse wire in the correct direction of the wire when the signal is going toward the speakers. So you want the fuse wire to be controlled for direction, too. The argument that wire in an AC circuit can't be directional is an old wives tale.
Edits: 02/28/22 02/28/22 02/28/22 02/28/22 02/28/22
Yeah, I hear you. I started cryo about 25 years ago and a couple years later started freezing things in the home freezer, I've cryo'd or frozen portable CD players, springs, records, CDs, steel and brass rods for my iso stands. The home freezer idea is Peter Belt's of course. Entire Mercury Living Presence box set, things of that nature. I also use special steel for my springs but that's all I can say about that. Heh heh
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