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In Reply to: RE: Questions 2 and 5 are related posted by John Marks on February 27, 2022 at 07:57:51
That's a good answer about why the direction of horse hairs in a violin bow makes a difference, but I'm confused about the direction of wire in an analog interconnect. The analog audio signal is alternating so I can't see why the wire direction would make a difference. The horse-hair analogy doesn't seem to apply to an audio interconnect since the audio signal is alternating back-and-forth.
If wire direction actually makes a difference, it would make more sense to construct both conductors of an audio interconnect with stranded wire in which half of the strands go in one direction and the other half go in the other direction. This way the alternating audio signal would be conducted by half the strands during the positive cycle and the other half during the negative cycle.
What am I missing?
Thanks!
John Elison
Follow Ups:
What are you missing? ... people at the other end of the conversation who know how electricity works mainly.
However, the fact the signal is AC has nothing to do with directionality. It can only be directional because it is AC. Every cable has minor aspects of directionality, but unless you have sensitive equipment and are testing in the MHz-GHZ range, it won't matter.
Actually, you're wrong. The fact that the wires are in an AC circuit doesn't prevent or negate the wires from being directional. Both wires + and - should be controlled for directionality from the beginning. When the wires are both in the correct orientation, the signal that travels towards the speakers will sound better than if the wires were reversed. The line of least resistance you could say. We don't care about the signal headed away from the speaker on either wire + and - since that doesn't affect the sound. Same logic goes for fuses. The fuse wire should be inserted such that when the signal travel thru the fuse wire in the direction of the speakers the best sounding direction should be.....wait for it...in the direction of the speakers. You can ignore the signal when it's travel away from the speakers.
Edits: 03/04/22
> However, the fact the signal is AC has nothing to do with directionality.
Now, I'm really confused. How do you define directionality? I always thought it meant the direction of current flow, but I guess that can't be your definition.
Thanks!
John Elison
"Directionality" is defined as the property of cables and wires that they sound better when inserted into the audio system one way vs the other. Directionality of a cable is determined as it comes off the spool and maintained during the manufacturing process by some but not all audio cable companies.But directionality goes beyond cables since it's a property of all wire. So fuses, internal speaker wiring, the wire in capacitors and transformers, HDMI cables, internal wiring in electronics, it's all directional,
We established a week or two ago on one of these threads that current doesn't flow in cables, technically speaking. The electrons don't really flow either. They wiggle back and forth at a high rate of frequency. Current is calculated by how many free electrons travel in the metal conductor at one time during their wiggle in one direction. Current is a scalar quantity and therefor has no velocity or direction. Are you still confused? :-)
Edits: 03/05/22 03/05/22
> We established a week or two ago on one of these threads that current doesn't flow in cables, technically speaking.
I think you're wrong about electron flow because if you take a battery and connect a wire between the positive and negative terminals, you will find that electrons will flow through the wire from negative to positive until the battery no longer has a difference in potential between the two terminals. Since all the extra electrons in the negative end of the battery move to the positive end of the battery, they must be flowing through the piece of wire connecting the two terminals.
In fact, current is defined as electron flow. One ampere of current is defined as 6.241 x 10 18 electrons flowing past a point in the wire every second.
Good luck,
John Elison
Battery is not AC, though, audio circuits are AC. Even in a DC circuit electrons travel extreme slowly, one meter per hour. So even in DC circuit its not correct to say they're "flowing."Thus, in audio circuits (AC) electrons just wiggle back and forth on both wires + and - at the instantaneous audio frequency, frequency range nominal 20 - 20k Hz. And the audio source produces the audio waveform and it's the *combination of two wires* + and - that produces the acoustic audio waveform via the speakers. To top it all off, as I calculated on one of these threads about a month ago, electrons move only about one millionth of an inch at a time during their rapid wiggle dance. Furthermore, free electron along each wire + and - net movement is zero.
Edits: 03/11/22 03/11/22
Posted by geoffkait (M) on March 11, 2022 at 15:07:24
In Reply to: RE: A few things posted by John Elison on March 11, 2022 at 14:24:36:
Battery is not AC, though, audio circuits are AC. Even in a DC circuit electrons travel extreme slowly, one meter per hour. So even in DC circuit its not correct to say they're "flowing."
Thus, in audio circuits (AC) electrons just wiggle back and forth on both wires + and - at the instantaneous audio frequency, frequency range nominal 20 - 20k Hz. And the audio source produces the audio waveform and it's the *combination of two wires* + and - that produces the acoustic audio waveform via the speakers. To top it all off, as I calculated on one of these threads about a month ago, electrons move only about one millionth of an inch at a time during their rapid wiggle dance. Furthermore, free electron along each wire + and - net movement is zero.
Finally!!
Now tell me again how the electrons carry the signal in the wire...
...
Finally? Are you out of mind? You've been wrong all along, and so are the sheep you were following all these years.The electric field that alternates direction along with the electrons' motion makes the speakers move. But the electric field is a result of electron motion, so which came first, the chicken or the egg? It depends on how you define the word "signal." Depends on how you define the word "flow," too. Words are just words, they mean different things to different people.
It's not difficult to see that cryogenically treating wire would reduce the clumping of metal crystal lattices, allowing free electrons to move along the x axis more easily and not get side-tracked, improving performance. It is also not very difficult to see that wire "directionality" plays a role - both + and - wires should be oriented such that their "best direction" is toward the speakers. We can ignore what happens in both + and - wires during the times electrons travel away from the speakers.
Going back to my original post, I'm actually implying by my questions is the "efficiency" of the electron motion determines everything that follows, the charge, the current, the voltage and the e and m fields. Thus, everything we can do to improve electron motion improves the sound. At the same time we want to minimize external influences on the electric field.
Edits: 06/04/22 06/04/22
So, what's your point?????
Furthermore, what difference does it make to anything including audio????
Did you sit in the back of class at school? Let's summarize,Current doesn't "flow," - current is calculated, it has no direction, it's a scalar quantity
Current doesn't change direction since it is a scalar quantity, same for voltage
The only thing that changes direction in an audio circuit is the electrons, on both wires + and -
Technically, the a Poynting vector does change direction, too, since it's a...uh, vector
Electrons move one direction on + wire and simultaneously the opposite direction on - wire, and vice versa
Electrons wiggle, but they don't flow in AC circuits (audio circuits)
Direction of wire determines the sound, all other things being equal
Wire is not physically or electrically symmetrical, thus the difference in sound
The electrons wiggle back and forth alternately on two wires + and -Now that we've established wire is directional, would it be too much of a stretch to say all wires in the audio system are directional and should be controlled for directionality? That means all rpt all wires, speaker cables, digital cables, HDMI a cables, internal speaker wires, internal electrinics wires, fuse, power cords, etc. If anyone disagrees, raise your hand.
The rate of alternation of electrons in the + and - wires is the instantaneous audio wavelength
Edits: 03/12/22 03/12/22 03/12/22 03/12/22
I don't think you or anyone else has established that wire is directional. It's just something you believe, but it has no basis in fact!
You're certainly welcome to believe anything you want, but your belief doesn't establish anything.
Happy listening!
John Elison
Stubborn as a mule, you don't even have any evidence wire isn't directional. You're the pseudo skeptic here, not me. A simple experiment will prove I'm right. Just reverse a fuse or interconnects or speaker cables. What are you afraid of? Have you given up? Catch up to the big boys!
Edits: 03/12/22 03/12/22
You should conduct a double blind ABX test. Then, nobody would ever argue with you. Of course, this assumes you can actually prove wire is directional in a double blind ABX test.
Perhaps an ABX test has already be conducted. If so, simply provide a link to the test results.
Thanks!
John Elison
Don't you know that negative results of any test, including a double blind ABX test, don't mean anything. Have you been napping all this time? Wake up and smell the coffee!Why do pseudo skeptics always demand proof using a double blind test? Yet they never ever do one themselves. Are they so lazy and uncurious? They won't even reverse interconnects, they won't lift a finger. They want someone else to do it and provide a link. Lol
Edits: 03/14/22
The positive results definitely mean something. If you can actually hear the difference in wire direction you can easily prove it beyond any shadow of a doubt with a double blind ABX test.
I suspect you already know you can't prove it, though!
Oh, well. Such is life!
I enjoy your pretzel logic. First you say wire directionality can't pass a blind test, now you say it can. Which is it, Mr. Smarty Pants? This discussion has run its course and can serve no purpose any more.
> This discussion has run its course and can serve no purpose any more.
I think it's wire directionality that's run its course and can serve no purpose. Nevertheless, you're right about this discussion.
Happy listening!
John Elison
I suspect it would be a good idea for to to find another hobby to get involved in. You've run your course on audio, perhaps macrame or model railroading would suit your skills better. Pseudo skeptics can only get so far. Good luck in your future hobby.
The coaxial cable was invented, mostly via pure math, by a British Post Office employee who was mostly self-taught.
But that did not stop Oliver Heaviside from independently inventing Vector Analysis Calculus as well as (IIRC) independently inventing the functional equivalent of the Laplace Transform.
The coaxial cable is one of the most elegant "invention stories" in technological history.
So, answer 1 is, coaxial cables are different from pairs of wires, whether flat or twisted.
Answer 2 is tha many electrical signals representing musical events are not symmetrical, either plus to minus, or left to right.
So, whether the correct phase gets the benefit of the smoother electrical path, does seem to matter.
I switched cable-fabrication subcontractors when the one I had could not be bothered to maintain proper directionality in XLRF/XLRM cables.
But, just the other day, someone who should have known better assured me that CD Error Correction takes care of all of that.
Not so.
I played the exact same music once for JA, first on an aluminum (pressed) CD and then on a 24-Kt Gold (pressed) CD, and he commented that he did not like living in a universe where such a detail made an audible difference... but he did hear the difference!!!
(And, I wrote about that for Stereophile, and JA had the good grace to publish it).
jm
That's not such a "small detail" since 24-Kt gold gold, even though it's so thin you can see through it, is a much better reflector of near infrared light than aluminum. The reason the Japanese SHM-CDs often sound superior to other CDs of the same music is because they use a more optically transparent clear layer, as it turns out polycarbonate is only about 91% transparent to light at that wavelength. Another "small detail."
Two wires are involved in AC circuits, so that means the signal on one wire goes in the direction of the speakers while the signal on the other wire goes in the opposite direction simultaneously. That's why both wires/cables should be controlled for direction, the signal will be going toward the speaker in the correct direction on both wires when the signal to going in that direction.It is the combination of the signal on both wires when it's going toward the speakers that is the audio waveform.
The signal that goes toward the speaker produces the sound, the signal that goes in the opposite direction doesn't affect the sound. So the *incorrect direction* for any wire or cable to away from the speaker. We don't care about the signal going in the opposite direction on either wire. This explains why you don't want half of stranded wires going in one direction and the other half of them going in the opposite direction. When the free electrons are moving in the "wrong direction" it's like stroking a porcupine's quills in the wrong direction.
That is also why fuses are directional; the signal goes through the fuse wire in the correct direction of the wire when the signal is going toward the speakers. So you want the fuse wire to be controlled for direction, too. The argument that wire in an AC circuit can't be directional is an old wives tale.
Edits: 02/28/22 02/28/22 02/28/22 02/28/22 02/28/22
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