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In Reply to: Truth? I'm pretty sure that isn't the exact truth posted by Ted Smith on May 18, 2007 at 09:16:30
Ted,
> But I'm not in the mood for arguing at the moment. I'm sure you understand :)
Yes sir, I do indeed understand! :->)
By posting a link to my article I didn't expect all the Kool-aid drinkers to drop their beliefs and hop on my science-based bandwagon. I understand that prejudices and beliefs have deep roots, and nowhere more than in this particular dark hallway of the Asylum. :) But when someone asks what seems like an honest question, I feel obligated to provide an honest answer.
Y'all can now resume your normal activities of worshiping Teflon coated replacement fuses, hospital grade AC power outlets, and everything sold by Furutech. I hope you realize no offense was intended.
BTW, if you or anyone else here would like to discuss the actual points of my article - not just say "I disagree" but actually discuss the science of audio - I'm all for it.
--Ethan
EW: "BTW, if you or anyone else here would like to discuss the actual points of my article - not just say "I disagree" but actually discuss the science of audio - I'm all for it."
Excellent. Maybe consider going back and reading your webpage there. The derisive responses you are getting are a result of you offering "naysaying" as "debunking". The difference between naysaying and debunking is that debunking requires proof and naysaying does not.
There is a lot of 'this is nonsense' and 'well that's just plain silly' but no real substatiation of your position. They said a round earth was "just plain silly" too. And they were wrong. And the proponents of a round earth eventually were able to substantiate their claims.
A lot of times naysayers believe that they do not need to offer proof - they believe it's up to the supporters of a claim to provide proof it WORKS. That is ultimately true. But when you come out and say things do NOT work (and go on to call them FRAUDULENT) the onus is now on YOU to support YOUR claims. It does not matter whether you claim something DOES work or DOES NOT work. Both are claims and both require substantiation.
You could start by solidifying your positions on some of the
Prove that RFI is a non-issue, and that a cable cannot reject RFI.
Prove that ultra-sonic information above 20khz is a non-issue.
Prove that RLC is the only attribute of a cable that matters.
Prove that power line noise cannot impact sonics.
Prove that power supplies are adequate filters for common line noise.
Prove that isolation from vibration is unecessary for turntables.
If you say "It does not" and someone else says "It does" you either need to substantiate your positions or agree to disagree.
Otherwise, you're no better off than kids in a schoolyard arguing about "who's dad can beat up the other dad".
Cheers,
Presto
Howdy Ethan
Discussing it is fine, just not on the Cables or Tweakers' Asyla :) Head on over to Prop Heads if you have the inclination. I don't :)
-Ted
Do you mean Tweakers' Asylum is now a DBT free zone, too? It doesn't seem to be designated that way in the Rules, which only designate Cables.
____________________________________________________
"Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.
Ted: ""
Discussing it is fine, just not on the Cables or Tweakers' Asyla :) Head on over to Prop Heads if you have the inclination. I don't :)""
Why not discuss it here? I think that might be possible without invoking the DBT monster. Granted, it may get a tad technical, but why not?
Ethan, whenever your ready. Let's start with line cords..they're the easiest..
Cheers, John
testing...
E = 1/2 LI 2
LC = εμ
Oh man, this is major cool. Rod: I absolutely love the changes...pictures and html code at the same time? Definitely a keeper.
Cheers, John
I realized what happened. After reading a bit, it's apparent that this thread was moved from Tweaks or somewhere. I know why it happened.
-Rod
Did you upload those pictures again and then delete them or put them into another message or do anything odd?I was looking at the error logs to see what's up mext for bug fixes tomorrow and noticed 404 errors on your images. Sure enough, they aren't there. I also see a couple of missing id numbers in the db table that would be about the right time which should mean tjat the images were deletedh
Did you post, delete and then repost with the same image urls?
That doesn't work. Well, it does, if the original post is there. But the images get deleted with the message. If you wanted to edit, use the edit. You don't need to delete and repost to edit.
Let me know if you know what happened, so I don't worry that there's yet another bug floating around.
-Rod
John,
> I think that might be possible without invoking the DBT monster. <
I just checked the forum FAQ to see what you guys are talking about. Wow, you mean people are not allowed to discuss DBT here? That seems like "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts." But I do understand that believers don't appreciate being challenged. Versus folks like me who are glad to be challenged and have the opportunity to explain something in more detail.
I posted the quote below somewhere else recently, and it seems appropriate here.
--Ethan
==============
Believer: "The sun orbits around the earth."
Galileo: "Not so! Using high quality monitoring [my telescope] shows that in fact the earth revolves around the sun."
Believer: "I can clearly see with my own eyes [ears] that the sun goes around the earth, and your claim of good monitoring does not convince me otherwise."
Galileo: "But wait, I can prove it with these math formulas [Shannon, Fourier, Nyquist]."
Believer: "Your math is not welcome here. Guard, take Galileo away and put him under house arrest."
You need to consider the issue from the viewpoint of the others.For example, a line cord. Many who hear a difference cannot express the reason mathematically to your satisfaction (nor mine), so are at a technical disadvantage in any scientific discussion. So any technical reasoning you (or I) can provide which counters their attempt at explanation is a rather one sided argument, no? The fact that they are unable to scientifically support what they perceive doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
We (scientific types) have to be careful not to arbitrarily discount the perceptions of others simply because we do not have a valid mechanism to explain what is perceived, and fallback into the ""it can't possibly be there"" mindset.. That certainly doesn't mean accept all the BS either..
Line cords are a perfect example. The statement by you regarding the wire going back to the pole, (and others going back to the substation or even the powerplant), disregards entirely aspects of power distribution (and more specifically, safety grounding) which are indeed troublesome to typical hifi enthusiasts.
Disregarding grounding issues is a disservice to the community at large, especially since it is us (engineer types) who require safety grounding with it's inherent coupling issues) on top of single ended equipment design (even balanced design has it's problems). That is precisely why I bothered to post a response here.
Invokation of DBT is one of those un-necessary scientific fallbacks, it does no service, and inherently fails to discriminate localization issues.
The alternative venue is of course, propheads. But a casual look there is enough to invoke the gag reflex..at least here, moderation maintains civility. You just have to accept the rules of engagement.
Cheers, John
ps...editing too, excellent...
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