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In Reply to: RE: Western Electrics 26a horn 594a driver posted by jt1989 on December 17, 2024 at 23:09:54
I wonder how many of those who say this combination only has historical interest and will not perform well have actually heard it. I've heard MANY systems, both original Western Electric and modern system employing Western Electric drivers (I own such a system), but, I have not heard the 594. It is a rare driver. Someone who builds a lot with Western Electric drivers and parts said that he prefers other Western Electric drivers, like the 555 (fieldcoil midrange), and permanent magnet drivers like the 713a,b,c (I run 713b drivers in my system), but, I do wish I could hear this for myself.
These drivers are not just interesting relics. They are among the very best compression drivers and I know of very few modern compression drivers that can compete. Nothing currently used by JBL, Klipsch, Volti, etc. come close to the Western Electric stuff. Even among vintage drivers, the best are either outright clones or are intended to sound like the Western Electric drivers of old; examples include Yoshimura Laboratories (YL) drivers, International Projector Company (IPC), and G.I.P. Laboratories (a company still in business making nearly identical clones of Western Electric fieldcoil drivers at prices near or above the price that Western Electric drivers command. There are spectacularly expensive drivers currently made by Cogent ALE and Goto that involve engineers from YL who are also wedded to the Western Electric sound.
I recently heard a fantastic new system built with modern 18" woofers, Western Electric 713a midrange compression driver and a YL horn (an adapter was needed to marry the two), and, I believe, an old Electrovoice horn tweeter. By horn system standards, this is a compact system. The 713a and YL horn combination was perhaps the best I've heard from a relatively compact horn (the horn, with its bent throat actually fit inside a box with the rest of the drivers). I've heard giant horns that had more weight and majesty, but, this was the best I've heard from a normal-sized speaker.
It is a bit unfortunate to me that a lot of Western Electric gear sits on shelves as collector items. Many should be incorporated into modern systems and played. For those who like their sound, there are very few modern options, and those options, like ALE, Cogent, Goto or G.I.P. can mean speaker systems that cost as much as a house.
Follow Ups:
Regardless of Japanese "copies."There are many modern drivers that can compete, otherwise they wouldn't exist and be sold in greater volume that the relics that use a 7 Watt field coil to only need 1 Watt for sound. Most of the praise is from a Quasi-religious belief at older is better without the same CONSTRAINTS that existed then, the drove their creation to start with.
They are still made with new materials, especially new glues, and more precise/repeatble CND machining, rectangular wire coil winding techniques, copper clad aluminum wire, and Neodymium Magnets (Samarium Cobalt if you can afford it).
Waxing poetic nostalgia is the main ingredient here besides compression/horn driver technology which has been IMPROVED with FEA techniques.
Different is never the same, however, with modern DSP technology and FIR filtering in the Room EQ feedback loop.
It's still amazing how good this stuff was 100 years ago and they will still play well if not abused via the long life of the materials used indoors.
However, they are NOT endowed with "magical properties" that all the prose written about them otherwise suggests.
Steam locomotives will still roll down the track just fine but they are no longer used except as a historical attraction in a museum, like the Henry Ford one in Dearborn. Nice to visit and I would not want to live there.
Like in the song "Dust in the Wind," nothing lasts forever but the earth and sky.
However, like Ralph Waldo Emerson said: "The Excellent is New Forever," if not exposed to the weather!
Edits: 12/31/24
I have heard, and I like, the Klipsch Jubilee and a JBL Everest system that employed DSP/active crossover and amplification, but neither sounded as good to me as modern systems employing vintage Western Electric, YL, or IPC drivers or modern clones like G.I.P. drivers. There are modern builders who employ neodymium magnets who also employ old school alnico magnets in their higher end models, and some even go the route of field-coils for their very top end models (e.g., Audio Note); old school technology/materials are still in use. G.I.P. only clones the field-coil models of Western Electric drivers because they have not been successful in matching the sound of the Western Electric permanent magnets.
Is a modern driver, like the TAD TD 4001 (neodymium magnets, beryllium diaphragm) superior to these vintage and vintage clone drivers? I am sure there are many who would say yes, but, it is a matter of taste and many others would say "no." In short, these drivers are NOT mere relics. They are obviously not practical choices for mass produced commercial products because they supply is limited to what is still working today, and they are quite cost prohibitive, but they can deliver sound that is unmatched in some people's opinion. The builder I know who uses these component is not building collector/prestige systems--he take apart collector items for their parts and combines them with modern parts to build new systems with the sound that he likes and his customers like.
If you have heard both systems employing either Western Electric drivers or their vintage or modern clones, and compared them to systems using modern compression drivers (and DSP, etc.) please provide the specific details.
I never claimed they would not sound good. I'm sure they do.Like my friend's $50,000 Twin (mono and stereo moving coils) Turntable, pre pre amp, pre amp of the Nelson Pass variety, along with a $7,000 LP cleaner, it's the COST and INCONVENIENCE that attracts you to old tech.
I was the first in Michigan to own a CD player. I just gave away half of my 1,000 lp collection.
I'm just not a fan of huge, expensive, field coil power supplies, just to listen to a horn driver.
I had TAD drivers in my Jubillee Clones, which looked way better than Klipsch. Now I listen to Danley SH-50/TH-50 tapped horns that are flat to 20 Hz.for over 10 year. Also own 16 jbl's commercial speakers, and a huge variety of EV, Jbl, I had big Altecs when I was 20 years old.I have also owned all the Klipsch Heritage and Pro speakers, with and without my driver mods. I had 3 pairs of Caver Amazing Platinums. I built my first speaker when I was 12. I adapted headphones to a portable Zenith AM radio when I was 13 on my paper route. I built DJ systems at 19 before disco craze, I have been to Axpona 3 times, helped Greg at Volti and suggested a new design for him, IOW I heard them all. Including a 1.2 Million dollar Wilson system with D'Agostino amp.3 years ago from the owners Daryl and Mom (RIP Dave) I spend a day with Paul W. Klipsch at his home. I met Saul Marantz, Irving M Fried, Gene Czerwinsky. I could go on, but my point is I'm done searching. My Danley benchmark setup simply kicks ALL of them to the curb. I will never make room for a 50 lb, 7 watt power supply for a frikkin coil with no permanent magnet wasting space, heat and money. You can also skip Valve (had all those too) space heaters. I'm all class D now, next will be Eigentakt, load independent, straight wire with gain.
I also have run hundreds of curves and simulations and helped others set up their systems. Here's a photo of my old 2-way with TADs, and bi amping. Class A 10W on top, Class ab on the bottom. I later drove those with Two $35 chip amps from Texas Instruments to 125 db output with no problem.
I built another pair of Klipsch Jube clones 10 1/2 years ago. I still have the black Klipsh K-402's you see here for my basement workout system. I now have a concentric 2-way b&c compressiondriver that plays from 300-18 Kz. that I would bet will stomp anything from 100 years ago, no matter how well they have been cloned by the Japanese.
Also, when you add the Price/Performance Ratio in the equation vs. overpaying for old stuff, new or 100 years old, there is no contest.
I would love to hear the antique you speak of, but I will NEVER own it. Waste of too much money.
Edits: 12/31/24
You are correct that much of the vintage stuff is expensive. But, so too are many high end speakers that don't come close to this gear or the terrific stuff that you listed.
I am also not enamored with the hassle of field coil power supplies. Fortunately for me, my compression drivers have permanent magnets. As for the cost, they were expensive, and while I don't intend to sell them, I can get MUCH more than I paid for them thanks to the collector market.
Thanks for posting, Larry. I enjoyed your enthusiasm for the Excellent, no matter what kind of magnet!
Good to hear of success and positive news wherever it comes from.
Regardless of Japanese "copies."
They are still made with new materials, especially new glues, and more precise coil winding techniques, copper clad aluminum wire, and Neodymium Magnets.
Waxing poetic nostalgia is the main ingredient here besides compression/horn driver technology which has been IMPROVED.
Different is never the same, however, with modern DSP technology and FIR filtering in the Room EQ feedback loop.
It's still amazing how good this stuff was 100 years ago and they will still play well if not abused via the long life of the materials used indoors.
However, they are NOT endowed with "magical properties" that all the prose written about them otherwise suggests.
Steam locomotives will still roll down the track just fine but they are no longer used except as a historical attraction in a museum, like the Henry Ford one in Dearborn. Nice to visit and I would not want to live there.
Like in the song "Dust in the Wind," nothing lasts forever but the earth and sky.
"It is a bit unfortunate to me that a lot of Western Electric gear sits on shelves as collector items."
I agree with darn near everything you wrote. As you wrote, many of those old drivers are quite good! The multi-cellular horn also adds a distinct "vintage" aspect to it. Somebody should get a pair to put into a nightclub or such. That would be cool. 'Course, there's the issue of parts availability for maintenance/longevity purposes, and amplifier connections.
There probably are people who want these things for their own personal use or collection (as I wrote earlier). That's great. On the other hand, I don't think you'll find a professional sound reinforcement engineer/designer who would put them into a modern sound reinforcement system, other than the long-odds of a system which I mentioned to earlier in this post.
Related... I have a brand new - never been connected to anything, not even to my old tube RCA tone generator - Altec 290-4G high output midrange compression driver. It's still in the box, since 1978. (I'm taking bids! ;) ) Sort of "vintage", but not really-really vintage.
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