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Gday to all!I've been suggested to come here for advice/answers on a Western Electrics 26a horn, 22a receiver attach and 594a loud speaking telephone "driver" (I believe). Not educated in this stuff but have had some great advice/responses from reddit which is why I've come across to here and some other more specific forums. I've given it a gentle wipe with a damp cloth but have not gone inside deep (which I was advised since I am uneducated) which has some dust and bird poo inside as you can see from a couple pictures, the ones pictured were sitting facing more upright which is why they are the worst ones where as the ones on the right side of the picture aren't as bad but still need a clean obviously. There is rust but only surface not deep or very damaging from what I can see and a few dings and scratches but please judge from the photos and let me know what you think. We hooked it up a multi meter (hopefully correctly) and it read 18.8 ohms which from what I was told is in the correct range for the driver to be intact. Just curious on condition, age, price, where the best place to sell and also what's the next step for me as I'm looking to pass on to someone that can appreciate and enjoy this piece! Please review the pictures and let me know any and all.
Cheers
Jackson
Edits: 12/17/24Follow Ups:
I wonder how many of those who say this combination only has historical interest and will not perform well have actually heard it. I've heard MANY systems, both original Western Electric and modern system employing Western Electric drivers (I own such a system), but, I have not heard the 594. It is a rare driver. Someone who builds a lot with Western Electric drivers and parts said that he prefers other Western Electric drivers, like the 555 (fieldcoil midrange), and permanent magnet drivers like the 713a,b,c (I run 713b drivers in my system), but, I do wish I could hear this for myself.
These drivers are not just interesting relics. They are among the very best compression drivers and I know of very few modern compression drivers that can compete. Nothing currently used by JBL, Klipsch, Volti, etc. come close to the Western Electric stuff. Even among vintage drivers, the best are either outright clones or are intended to sound like the Western Electric drivers of old; examples include Yoshimura Laboratories (YL) drivers, International Projector Company (IPC), and G.I.P. Laboratories (a company still in business making nearly identical clones of Western Electric fieldcoil drivers at prices near or above the price that Western Electric drivers command. There are spectacularly expensive drivers currently made by Cogent ALE and Goto that involve engineers from YL who are also wedded to the Western Electric sound.
I recently heard a fantastic new system built with modern 18" woofers, Western Electric 713a midrange compression driver and a YL horn (an adapter was needed to marry the two), and, I believe, an old Electrovoice horn tweeter. By horn system standards, this is a compact system. The 713a and YL horn combination was perhaps the best I've heard from a relatively compact horn (the horn, with its bent throat actually fit inside a box with the rest of the drivers). I've heard giant horns that had more weight and majesty, but, this was the best I've heard from a normal-sized speaker.
It is a bit unfortunate to me that a lot of Western Electric gear sits on shelves as collector items. Many should be incorporated into modern systems and played. For those who like their sound, there are very few modern options, and those options, like ALE, Cogent, Goto or G.I.P. can mean speaker systems that cost as much as a house.
Regardless of Japanese "copies."There are many modern drivers that can compete, otherwise they wouldn't exist and be sold in greater volume that the relics that use a 7 Watt field coil to only need 1 Watt for sound. Most of the praise is from a Quasi-religious belief at older is better without the same CONSTRAINTS that existed then, the drove their creation to start with.
They are still made with new materials, especially new glues, and more precise/repeatble CND machining, rectangular wire coil winding techniques, copper clad aluminum wire, and Neodymium Magnets (Samarium Cobalt if you can afford it).
Waxing poetic nostalgia is the main ingredient here besides compression/horn driver technology which has been IMPROVED with FEA techniques.
Different is never the same, however, with modern DSP technology and FIR filtering in the Room EQ feedback loop.
It's still amazing how good this stuff was 100 years ago and they will still play well if not abused via the long life of the materials used indoors.
However, they are NOT endowed with "magical properties" that all the prose written about them otherwise suggests.
Steam locomotives will still roll down the track just fine but they are no longer used except as a historical attraction in a museum, like the Henry Ford one in Dearborn. Nice to visit and I would not want to live there.
Like in the song "Dust in the Wind," nothing lasts forever but the earth and sky.
However, like Ralph Waldo Emerson said: "The Excellent is New Forever," if not exposed to the weather!
Edits: 12/31/24
I have heard, and I like, the Klipsch Jubilee and a JBL Everest system that employed DSP/active crossover and amplification, but neither sounded as good to me as modern systems employing vintage Western Electric, YL, or IPC drivers or modern clones like G.I.P. drivers. There are modern builders who employ neodymium magnets who also employ old school alnico magnets in their higher end models, and some even go the route of field-coils for their very top end models (e.g., Audio Note); old school technology/materials are still in use. G.I.P. only clones the field-coil models of Western Electric drivers because they have not been successful in matching the sound of the Western Electric permanent magnets.
Is a modern driver, like the TAD TD 4001 (neodymium magnets, beryllium diaphragm) superior to these vintage and vintage clone drivers? I am sure there are many who would say yes, but, it is a matter of taste and many others would say "no." In short, these drivers are NOT mere relics. They are obviously not practical choices for mass produced commercial products because they supply is limited to what is still working today, and they are quite cost prohibitive, but they can deliver sound that is unmatched in some people's opinion. The builder I know who uses these component is not building collector/prestige systems--he take apart collector items for their parts and combines them with modern parts to build new systems with the sound that he likes and his customers like.
If you have heard both systems employing either Western Electric drivers or their vintage or modern clones, and compared them to systems using modern compression drivers (and DSP, etc.) please provide the specific details.
I never claimed they would not sound good. I'm sure they do.Like my friend's $50,000 Twin (mono and stereo moving coils) Turntable, pre pre amp, pre amp of the Nelson Pass variety, along with a $7,000 LP cleaner, it's the COST and INCONVENIENCE that attracts you to old tech.
I was the first in Michigan to own a CD player. I just gave away half of my 1,000 lp collection.
I'm just not a fan of huge, expensive, field coil power supplies, just to listen to a horn driver.
I had TAD drivers in my Jubillee Clones, which looked way better than Klipsch. Now I listen to Danley SH-50/TH-50 tapped horns that are flat to 20 Hz.for over 10 year. Also own 16 jbl's commercial speakers, and a huge variety of EV, Jbl, I had big Altecs when I was 20 years old.I have also owned all the Klipsch Heritage and Pro speakers, with and without my driver mods. I had 3 pairs of Caver Amazing Platinums. I built my first speaker when I was 12. I adapted headphones to a portable Zenith AM radio when I was 13 on my paper route. I built DJ systems at 19 before disco craze, I have been to Axpona 3 times, helped Greg at Volti and suggested a new design for him, IOW I heard them all. Including a 1.2 Million dollar Wilson system with D'Agostino amp.3 years ago from the owners Daryl and Mom (RIP Dave) I spend a day with Paul W. Klipsch at his home. I met Saul Marantz, Irving M Fried, Gene Czerwinsky. I could go on, but my point is I'm done searching. My Danley benchmark setup simply kicks ALL of them to the curb. I will never make room for a 50 lb, 7 watt power supply for a frikkin coil with no permanent magnet wasting space, heat and money. You can also skip Valve (had all those too) space heaters. I'm all class D now, next will be Eigentakt, load independent, straight wire with gain.
I also have run hundreds of curves and simulations and helped others set up their systems. Here's a photo of my old 2-way with TADs, and bi amping. Class A 10W on top, Class ab on the bottom. I later drove those with Two $35 chip amps from Texas Instruments to 125 db output with no problem.
I built another pair of Klipsch Jube clones 10 1/2 years ago. I still have the black Klipsh K-402's you see here for my basement workout system. I now have a concentric 2-way b&c compressiondriver that plays from 300-18 Kz. that I would bet will stomp anything from 100 years ago, no matter how well they have been cloned by the Japanese.
Also, when you add the Price/Performance Ratio in the equation vs. overpaying for old stuff, new or 100 years old, there is no contest.
I would love to hear the antique you speak of, but I will NEVER own it. Waste of too much money.
Edits: 12/31/24
You are correct that much of the vintage stuff is expensive. But, so too are many high end speakers that don't come close to this gear or the terrific stuff that you listed.
I am also not enamored with the hassle of field coil power supplies. Fortunately for me, my compression drivers have permanent magnets. As for the cost, they were expensive, and while I don't intend to sell them, I can get MUCH more than I paid for them thanks to the collector market.
Thanks for posting, Larry. I enjoyed your enthusiasm for the Excellent, no matter what kind of magnet!
Good to hear of success and positive news wherever it comes from.
Regardless of Japanese "copies."
They are still made with new materials, especially new glues, and more precise coil winding techniques, copper clad aluminum wire, and Neodymium Magnets.
Waxing poetic nostalgia is the main ingredient here besides compression/horn driver technology which has been IMPROVED.
Different is never the same, however, with modern DSP technology and FIR filtering in the Room EQ feedback loop.
It's still amazing how good this stuff was 100 years ago and they will still play well if not abused via the long life of the materials used indoors.
However, they are NOT endowed with "magical properties" that all the prose written about them otherwise suggests.
Steam locomotives will still roll down the track just fine but they are no longer used except as a historical attraction in a museum, like the Henry Ford one in Dearborn. Nice to visit and I would not want to live there.
Like in the song "Dust in the Wind," nothing lasts forever but the earth and sky.
"It is a bit unfortunate to me that a lot of Western Electric gear sits on shelves as collector items."
I agree with darn near everything you wrote. As you wrote, many of those old drivers are quite good! The multi-cellular horn also adds a distinct "vintage" aspect to it. Somebody should get a pair to put into a nightclub or such. That would be cool. 'Course, there's the issue of parts availability for maintenance/longevity purposes, and amplifier connections.
There probably are people who want these things for their own personal use or collection (as I wrote earlier). That's great. On the other hand, I don't think you'll find a professional sound reinforcement engineer/designer who would put them into a modern sound reinforcement system, other than the long-odds of a system which I mentioned to earlier in this post.
Related... I have a brand new - never been connected to anything, not even to my old tube RCA tone generator - Altec 290-4G high output midrange compression driver. It's still in the box, since 1978. (I'm taking bids! ;) ) Sort of "vintage", but not really-really vintage.
*********
We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
build the best mono system you've ever heard and dont look back.
for what it was designed for, like any other WE product, it has no equal.
it will sing at your funeral.
One reason some of the old WE stuff is prized is both historical and audible.
Many of the things loudspeakers do wrong or add, increase faster with level than the output from the input signal and so as they used to say "headroom is your friend".
These horn speakers were used in movie theaters and the largest audio uses and WE were mostly for music and sound track vs voice only PA.
Using this kind of driver / horn in ones living room, one is driving it at a tiny tiny power level. These (pre-1970's) drivers didn't have power compression either, if you drove one that hard, the glue holding the wire to the voice coil melted and the wire fell off.
I do not collect the old or expensive stuff but the WE driver i heard and saw taken apart was constructed like a modern driver in fact WE set the standard in the day..
At a few feet, it sounded like an excellent mid driver, it did not go all the way up and went down to maybe 300Hz so extended voice range (the closest thing i can think of is a JBL 375 & large horn).
Maybe like an old tractor, the good of the old stuff in audio, can still do a good job within it's limits.
Tom
I've heard big antique horns and drivers on several occasions and had very good listening experiences. They reproduce vocals with a big clear "in your face" sound that make modern flat smooth speakers sound a bit dull.
I tried 2' by 2' horns in my room and other 2" drivers on big horns. Nothing like Johnny Cash standing right in front of you. But overall they didn't quite work out in my 12' by 18' room sitting 6 foot away. If the room were 20 by 30 foot and I sat 12 foot away maybe they'd work out for me.
I downsized to the JBL 2431 1.4" driver which is closer to the smooth flat sound. I like JBL aluminum diaphragms.
"Maybe like an old tractor, the good of the old stuff in audio, can still do a good job within it's limits.
Tom"With a clear intent to distinguish the PRACTICAL (meaning we actually LISTEN to MUSIC NOW) vs. historical significance:
I say it's a waste of Today's Money and Space to have these at home (opinion).
Fact: There's a Mexican Restaurant, 1 mile from my house, that has an Old Tractor by the main road front, as a DECORATION, which prompts: "WTH is this thing doing here?" type of responses from hungry customers!! LOL
Like old Tanks and Planes from bygone years, since they can no longer serve their original purpose, replaced by Modern Driver/horn Technology, they can ONLY server as Lawn Decor in the new Millenium. Yes?
Edits: 12/21/24 12/21/24 12/21/24
Good points, Tom.If old tractors still run, they can still move dirt, but not as much a modern tractors, eh?
I like jbl 375's. They still needed super tweeters for the last octave, and a woofer for the first Three, and a subwoofer for the really Low TWO!
Now all our systems are 4-way. The only ones that are 2-way have lots of shelving and PEQ to make them work...........at a cost of watts and distortion?
Edits: 12/24/24
You could build something like what is
discussed in the link below. You might think
of it as a transformational practice of devotion.
Best,
/ Mats
Great article. Thanks for the reminder Mats!
I have to assume Inmate51 is being facetious when he says it has no value. It is extremely valuable to collectors, both for its artifact value (rarity and historical significance) and its sound quality when used with appropriate equipment. You should be able to get a pretty nice car for what it's worth. Out of my league, but if you PM me I can put you in touch with people who trade in such things and would be more than willing to pay you large sums for it.
As I replied to "belyin":Please re-read this part of my post, very carefully:
****
"You might sell it to an historical audio museum or to a vintage speaker collector/aficianado.
Other than that, for practical purposes, its value is zero."
****
I know there are folks out there who would fall all over themselves to have this item. One more time: "vintage speaker collector/aficianado".
But I guarantee you that you will not find any professional sound reinforcement system designers who will even consider putting that into a modern sound reinforcement system. In this arena, it's value is zero .
*********
We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
Edits: 12/19/24
I don't often post to this forum, since I don't have much to contribute here. However, the driver/horn system you have is both ancient and not usable in a modern sound reproduction system.
You might sell it to an historical audio museum or to a vintage speaker collector/aficianado.
Other than that, for practical purposes, its value is zero.
*********
We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
Could be the single dumbest post in AA history.
"Could be the single dumbest post in AA history."
Instead of just throwing a turd, you might offer some actual reasoning for your opinion.
I will repeat:
Nobody, and I mean nobody , who is designing sound reinforcement systems these days would use such a driver/multi-cell horn loudspeaker. It's almost laughable. Its value is zero in the pro sound field.
As I wrote , the market for such an item is a vintage museum or a collector/aficionado.
Somebody wrote that such driver/horn combinations go for "$10,000 and up". I would still like to see the evidence of just two such sales. Otherwise, it's bullshit.
Now, back to your insulting post: Write something useful which backs up your statement.
*********
We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
Perhaps little "practical" value as the 594a is a field coil driver and thus needs a power source to energize the magnetic field so it definitely can't be just connected to your amplifier, BUT it has significant monetary value especially if it is in working condition--starting at $10,000 and up! And some people do think it is one of the finest compression drivers ever made
Please re-read this part of my post, very carefully:
****
"You might sell it to an historical audio museum or to a vintage speaker collector/aficianado.
Other than that, for practical purposes, its value is zero."
****
I know there are folks out there who would fall all over themselves to have this item. One more time: "vintage speaker collector/aficianado".
"starting at $10,000 and up!"
Show me two examples of actual sales (not asking price!) in that range. Just two will be adequate. If you have more, that's fine. I suppose, as in any vintage product market, there might be somebody who wants it that badly.
But I guarantee you that you will not find any professional sound reinforcement system designers who will even consider putting that into a modern sound reinforcement system. In this arena, it's value is zero .
*********
We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
I don't have the evidence of actual sales, and of course anyone can ask whatever they want. But there is some relation to asking price and selling price for anyone who sells as a business and not just a hobby. If is so important to you, look it up on Worthpoint.
I agree that no professional sound reinforcement system would find any use for it. I was just trying to point out that there are other "arenas" besides museums and pro sound that see value in this sort of gear, and furthermore this is not as far as I know a pro sound forum so I see no need to be so dismissive of its discussion.
"I don't have the evidence of actual sales, and of course anyone can ask whatever they want."
:)
Moving on...
"I agree that no professional sound reinforcement system would find any use for it."
OK, I think we're done here.
*********
We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
Red herring is the special on tonight's menu.
exactly. well said.
Jackson,
When you want to post more than one picture,
select the preview option after uploading the Photo-
you can then add an additional picture, repeat as necessary...
Happy Listening
Horn speaker
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