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I am asking for Super Tweeter Suggestions. I have a pair of Klipschorns and Custom Cabinets that I rotate 15" Full Range Speakers and Coaxial Speakers into. Audio Nirvana Alnico, Lii Audio, Great Plains Audio. I have been using JBL Tweeters mostly. Discontinued Pro Models. Using Tube and SS Amps and Preamps... Just hoping to get a bit better details and information on the upper end. Considering Faital, Beyma, Others?
Thanks!
Follow Ups:
for the price, I recommend radio shack versions to start and get feel for them and not having to spend arm and leg to try. I have several different ones but my hearing not good enough to tell but other visitors to my sound room heard differences,
Good Idea.... Thanks...
No longer available new but have a very good reputation. Extremely linear to about 50Khz.
Thanks for reminding me about Fostex....
I am on a quest to get extended high frequency response (20000K) with my Klipschorns. I have the Volti Audio Wooden Horns with BMS 4592ND-MID 2" Drivers and ALK Universal Crossovers. Please Share your Best Experience Soundwise. The Choices of Tweeters and Horn and Driver Combos are extensive. Thanks in Advance for your Suggestions.
Thanks,
Chuck
far below was this;
So you have a mid only version of this coax driver.
https://images.static-thomann.de/pics/atg/atgdata/document/specs/bms_4592nd_t.data.pdf
In that case, you might want to try the B&C version of that driver WITH the hf unit, also a coax driver with a crossover that is easier to manage than the with the coax BMS. Both have a 1.4 inch and 2 inch exit coax version.
https://bcspeakers.com/en/products/coaxials-hf/2-0/8/dcx462-8
Both the bms and B&C have an HF section that gets up all the way into the top octave where many, especially large horn drivers don't/can't reach.
It would be highly desirable if you can measure what you have as you go along. Frequency response (aside from signal absence) is the most obvious thing we hear and horns are very rarely flat on their own.
Hi,
I compared the 2 models Frequency Response BMS Version 300 - 22000Hz/B&C Version 300 - 18000Hz. I wish I would have gotten the BMS Coaxial instead the Mid Version years ago...Curious as to how that would have worked.. So what 1 inch Throat Driver would give me superior sound up to 20000 Hz?
Thanks
Hi
There are a number that hit 20K, a few go past. In this regard, BMS has most of the options.
I use the first one in a number of products at work, a ferrite driver that fit's the bill.
https://www.bmsspeakers.com/fileadmin/bms-data/product_data_2011/compression_drivers_ferrite/bms_4550_2011-04_hf_compression_driver.pdf
Some others;
https://www.bmsspeakers.com/fileadmin/bms-data/product_data_2011/compression_drivers_neodymium/bms_4540nd_2011-04_hf_neodymium_compression_driver.pdf
https://www.bmsspeakers.com/fileadmin/bms-data/product_data_2011/compression_drivers_ferrite/bms_4538_2011-04_hf_compression_driver.pdf
https://www.bmsspeakers.com/fileadmin/bms-data/product_data_2012/bms_4547nd_t_data_2012-01.pdf
https://www.bmsspeakers.com/fileadmin/bms-data/product_data_2011/compression_drivers_neodymium/bms_4552nd_2011-04_hf_neodymium_compression_driver.pdf
Faital also makes a couple that go all the way like this one.
https://faitalpro.com/en/products/HF_Drivers/product_details/index.php?id=502010170
B&C make a couple really good drivers / well behaved too like this one
https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/products/hf-driver/1-0/8/de360-8
Hope that helps
Tom
Hi Tom,
Thanks for all your thoughtful and helpful suggestions! I am considering those you sent. Question what do you know/think of
https://eminence.com/products/n151m_8.
Best Regards,
Chuck
Pay for an actual audiologist to document your hearing.
The results Will shock you.
+1. Only my dog would have noticed 20K high freq. extension.
I was horrified that I had lost the high end out of my speakers. Then I grabbed my rat shack meter. It showed plenty of high end output.
Oh, well. I kept those upper octaves of hearing for a good decade or two longer than most guys. But still, getting old beats the alternative.
Back for a bit again. Ignore me if you like.
Good Call, Been There, Done That. This past September... Definitely Useful. Thanks.
I don't know what exactly you consider a "super tweeter" (for me the definition for a super tweeter starts above 20KHz)
but if it's a TWEETER you're looking for, I really like the B&C DE10. I'm using them on their matching ME10 horns, because it works perfect with my midrange horns, but the LMAHL version probably sounds less directive.
A great tweeter, with a punchy yet natural sound (mylar diaphragm) for very little money!
I am also using that tweeter to fill in above Lowther drivers. I high pass them at 8 khz, so it adds about an octave, which is appreciated. I use them in transylvania tubes.
This tweeter sounds way better than its price. Supposedly the RAAL tweeters are the cats meow, but I wonder how much better the RAAL would be than the DE10.
Retsel
In light of the Fact that Fundamental frequencies only exist at 4 Khz. and below, and in the face of 2-way speakers that move the sound out of a mid-wooder above 800-1.2 Khz. and call that a tweeter, I'd say anything above around 4-6 Khz Xover is a Super Tweeter, unless you like entertaining BATS!But for humans, anything above 20 Khz. borders on the ridiculous.
By the way, I had DE-10's and ME-10's aout 13 years ago, but now I use LMAHLs since I helped to develop them. DE-10 is now my second choice crossed at 6 Khz. but my First choice at 4 Khz. So it depends on crossover point.
I was given a nice gift, from my friend, Dave Ault. A pair of beautiful wood horns with a levered, weighted base of wood a stainless steel rod.
I'm looking at trying an Eminence N151M-8 ring radiator (Thank You to Tom Danley for the recommendation) on that larger Tractrix Tweeter horn at 4 Khz. UP.
Edits: 10/24/23
Claude, yes, but in common audio vocabulary, 800 to 500Hz would be considered a midrange driver, and above would be considered a tweeter, in a three way that is
In a two ways, I'd rather say "mid/high frequencies driver" rather than "tweete" especially when it is a horn.
But, in the end, it's just words.
I run my DE10 above 6Khz myself.
I agree with your comments Mr. K. The other Mr. K (Paul W. Klipsch) when being interviewed by an Arkansas TV Station for Videotaped Broadcast, he referred to an original Klipschorn crossover as "sending one to the woofer and one to the tweeter" which was 500 Hz. at the time.
The dividing line is important for the 3 driver in a 3-way and is mostly relevant to that application in a "de facto" standard way of reference. My response was to OFFSET the less relevant comment in the thread, claiming that a "Super" tweeter had to "sing" in an UHF band that only dogs and bats would care about, not humans.
So, if you look at the Klipsch Jubilee with the Celestion Axi Driver, it's crossed at 350 Hz. to the "big tweeter horn" the Klipsch/Roy Delgado K-402
...and I just realized I made a typo: of course I meant "800 to 5000Hz"
Thanks KanedaK... B&C certainly offers a huge selection of options.. Checking out their Catalog Now... Your Recommendation is appreciated. Chuck
I have a friend in Charlotte who can rebuild them.
Like the man from Vermont was once asked: "How's your wife?"
To which, he replied: "Compared to what?"
Here's something...
T 35's roll off at about 8 Khz. only good for older ears, which means born at the same time as the T-35
Edits: 10/20/23
I agree that they roll off above 8kHz, but they do have usable response to 15 kHz. The trick is to cross them over higher, like around 10-12kHz. That removes a lot of the harshness.
Yes, and Removing the T-35 entirely removes a lot of the harshness too. LOL
nt
all the best,
mrh
Col. Paul W. Klipsch loved 'em.
Were I a snarky Marky, I'd add, simply, 'nuff said. ;)
That said, as nasty as the T35 tended to sound in the 'heritage' Klipsch designs, EV managed to get the T35 and its lesser kin (T35B/TW35) to sound smoother -- not sure why or how (i.e., I've never thought too hard about the simple XOs used by EV - or Klipsch's, for that matter). It might be purely audio placebo reflecting my innate fondness for most things EV. :)
In seriousness, though, a couple of not-at-all-random examples: The T35B in an EV Esquire and the tweeter (presumably a T35B/TW35 variant) in the adorable and unassuming "Wolverine" LT12 coax are quite acceptible to my (yes - geriatric!) ears.
I have a passel of T35s, more than a couple of which have bad diaphragms. I have long been tempted to try some of the cheap aftermarket diaphragms currently available for them, but I've so far managed to avoide the temptation. I reckon that alignment is probably pretty tricky... plus it's hard to get excited about dissecting an EV coax (e.g., a 12TRXB) -- and I've got a few of those with dead tweeters. :(
PS the T35's big sibling (at least in terms of mass, sensitivity, and street price), the T350, seems to be cut from different (better) cloth. Again, I don't really know why, and I literally ;) cannot afford a pair of T350s, so I am far from expert on them.
all the best,
mrh
Great Plains Audio/GPA acquired the tooling from EV to make the diaphrams for the T35/T350, however they ran into a problem in sourcing suitable phenolic bases which the voice coil was wound onto. I talked to them at an audio show several years ago about this, but it does not seem like they have had any luck with it as the last time I looked at their website the T35/T350 was not even mentioned. The problem seems to be the difficulty in producing these phenolic bases with accurate and consistent weight and compliance. EV seemed to have some issues too in this regard down through the years. I had a pair of old 16 Ohm T35's and one of them had a nasty resonance. Taking them apart everything seemed mechanically nice and tight and the same, but I wound up gluing a tiny bit of extra gasket material near the outside of the voice coil which tamed the resonance down. So if you want to rephram an old T35 be prepared to do some fine tuning. Previously I rephramed a T35B some years ago with one of the then available foreign made diaphrams and was disappointed with the result. The T35 and T350 use nominally the same diaphrams, but the T350 has a larger horn and phase plug, plus a larger alnico magnet. I recall Klipsch stating at one point in a Speaker Builder/Audio Am article that they inspected all their EV tweeters for quality control. I wonder what happened to the rejects.
Paul
This is why I say, ABANDON SHIP on 65 year old technology and BUY tweeters from B&C or Faital or BMS, or anyone else making modern compression super tweeters. NOT WORTH THE EFFORT AND DOLLARS AND TIME.
It all comes down to the equipment break-in time effect, which is much discussed in audiophile circles. Mem-ristance, or memory resistance is actually being studied in the ever increasing effort to miniaturize the transistor for computers, as the electrical resistance of a conductor can change when it is used in an operating circuit. Also being looked at is mem-inductance and mem-capacitance, as scientists had wondered why the basic electrical perameters of resistance, capacitance and inductance were a 3 part package when most physical forces had two opposing parts. Adding the 3 missing "mem" components to the basic 3 makes for a 6 part field of perameters which are nicely divisible by 2. The reason why all the old audio stuff is still valued is that it's taken some 65 years to break it in! Tom Brennan has posed the question here once of "How come it never sounds worse?" after the requisite break in time some audiophiles claimed. And the answer is "It can, and sometimes does". That is why audiophiles are always looking to upgrade their equipment. And the manufacturers are aware of this of course.
What's Good for the Goose is Good for the Gander Dept.
A seldom looked at factor in audio is the break-in effect on the audiophile's hearing. It has been said on this forum that if the audiophile is in the 64+ year old class, that they cant hear anything over 12K Hz. This is likely a mixed blessing as CRT screens, with their flyback transformers singing at some 13K Hz, are disappearing from everyday life. I can hear the 16K Hz test signal on the Stereophile Test CD on my EV T350's, so that must make me super human in that regard. However I cant hear the 20K signal track, though the test microphone can. It's just as well as at 20K it's just all bat chirps, and that would drive me nuts. Tom Danley has said that in his investigations that you probably could ear a 20K Hz signal "If it's loud enough", but I aint gonna use my tweeters as fuses. Even a 300B SET amp could blow em.
Paul
Don't yell, Claude.
Edits: 10/28/23
enn tee
all the best,
mrh
I have a low tolerance and high level of frustrations for people who refuse to let go of old crap and refuse to buy better components with inflated dollars. As if there was "magic" in the old stuff that's surfferred the ravages of time.
Edits: 10/28/23
The treble of the heritage Klipsch designs was ghastly.
If he/they selected drivers, one might reasonably infer that the rejects sounded better.
It was a joke.
Humor is lost on you, perhaps?
Very sad if that's the case.
My suggestion: Don't take this stuff too seriously. Bad for the psyche.
all the best,
mrh
When seeking or sharing real information, I do take it seriously.Don't you? Or is this just a flippant answer as substitute for otherwise useful data you don't have to contribute?
Maybe I should simply use the missing sense of humor and laugh at the photo of a crappy looking pair of old speakers you posted?
What should I have a sense of humor about, since, apparently, I missed the point or don't belong to a secret club here?
Edits: 10/28/23 10/28/23
Alpha Al- sent PM. Thx.
Does he have 16ohm diaphragms?
I will look I may have salvaged a pair from some discarded EV Speakers... Thanks!
I helped develop some Tractrix Tweeter lenses with curving and feedback to Dave Ault in TN. Well designed and able to take many different tweeter drivers.As a "drop in" solution for Klipschorns, LaScalas, Cornwalls, Heresys he makes sMAHL with B&C DE-120 drivers. His kit is totally "drop in," and he provides you with everything you need. It's original Acronym was Small Machined Aluminum Horn Lens, and Large Machined Aluminum Horn Lens. sMAHL and LMAHL. Very adaptable to any Super Tweeter driver.
He also machines them out of exotic Walnut, cherry, and other wood materials. His larger version is called an LMAHL in aluminum
He only sells B&C DE-120 and DE-10 tweeter drivers with his horns. I cured them all and these are the best.
Top notch and very satisfied customers.
you can Email him at fieldweld@att.net Tell him CLAUDE sent you.
Hundreds of satisfied customers can't be wrong. He's also on Ebay, but you may save a little moohlah if you buy direct.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/225616391026?hash=item3487c8eb72:g:1L0AAOSwXTBkiGR5&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwGVzY1BsRfv3LMUswt4hc4wY8Tdr2xACM6HXUbtXIuViaEH5d%2FS0rzKAi03XPshSORQyM9IUGqh8ZcQHm0Dg%2BKzF4Lm0udbidyBk9YJ2MVnxJzd0jP8AsDjaAhG5dYxVMS2tY0MOQp3Jv4GBELuj5fG3Q4FWHgO%2B9aIkOBdrh4Y5VXOf4esI4thkXT8VB3ODVFI%2FvUT4EOgHbZjqyMIcDBf%2BbHrUuEq%2BEacari22j0pXMc2NwKrjVep%2F6ETAtpXIlA%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR9b18J7pYg
Edits: 10/19/23 10/19/23
Hi Claude,
Great Info! Will check him out..
Thanks,
Chuck
I use Fostex super tweeters, but they're pricey. A friend, Pete, swears by this JBL ST400-BLK. It claims sensitivity 111 dB and works well with his Altec A7 VOTs.
-Rod
I second the thanks posted by escape2cfc !
:)
all the best,
mrh
Hi Rod,
Thanks for the Recommendation/Suggestion...
Best Regards,
Chuck
There are a few compression drivers that reach 20k+
You should also examine B&C and BMS. Both also make top notch drivers.
Tom
What kind of horn does this go on?
As Tom D. said (or at least implied!), for many of the venerable compression drivers, even extending output above 14 kHz (or 16 or 18 kHz, as the case may be) could make a big difference, so even the "limited" extension (again, it's all relative!) of the B&C DE35 is a value-add -- at least in my case: atop an EMILAR EH500-2 horn and a JBL 2441. :)
Not exactly cheap but not at all unreasonable and smooth enough for me (and I am rather picky about ear-gouging treble).
all the best,
mrh
Hi, I have BMS4592 2" Mid Drivers mounted on Wooden Horns in my Klipcshorns, I will Check out your suggestions. Thanks!
Hi
The 4592 is the coax driver i think, if it is, you have a super tweeter, a REAL one that does go past 20KHz.
What i recall is the mf/hf crossover isn't as good as it could be. We use the B&C coax in it's place.
The thing with horns is getting smooth / flat response, do you have a way to measure what you have?
Hi,
I bought the Volti Audio Wooden Horns for an upgrade. The Supplied Drivers are BMS 4592 Mids, BMS does have a Coaxial Version. I am considering B&C DE-38 and DE-120 1" Drivers for Tweeters. Do you have a recommendation?
Much Appreciated,
Chuck
hI
So you have a mid only version of this coax driver I was referring to
https://images.static-thomann.de/pics/atg/atgdata/document/specs/bms_4592nd_t.data.pdf
In that case, you might want to try the B&C version of that driver, also a coax driver with a crossover that is easier to manage than the BMS.
https://bcspeakers.com/en/products/coaxials-hf/2-0/8/dcx462-8
Both get up into the top octave where many drivers don't go.
Hi,
I ended up getting a pair of B&C DE38 1" Neodymium Mylar Horn Compression Driver 2-Bolt. Attached to B&C ME20 1" Exponential Flare Horn 90 x 60 2-Bolt. I am pleased with what I am hearing. BTW I also bought a pair of Eminence N151M-8 1" Ring Radiator Driver 8 Ohm 2-Bolt to try later on.Thanks for Your Suggestions!
Best Regards,
Chuck
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