In Reply to: Subwoofer recommendations posted by Apokalypse on February 28, 2007 at 18:29:14:
Hello Apokalypse,As you've probably noticed, most subwoofers are designed for loudest-deepest-possible-bass in the smallest-possible-box. That's great for home theater, but not necessarily the best set of priorities for music reproduction.
My suggestion is to get two less expensive subs, preferably with 4th order low-pass filters. Avoid models with ultraheavy cones - in my experience they tend to sound like rumblemotors instead of like music.
Let me explain my reasoning behind suggesting two subs:
Consider the situation with a single subwoofer. There will be one path length from the sub to the listening position. There will be another path length from the sub to the wall behind you and then back to the listening position. At the frequency where the path length difference is equal to one-half wavelength, the energy reflecting off the back wall will arrive 180 degrees out-of-phase with the direct energy and a cancellation dip will result. At the frequency where the path length difference is equal to one wavelength, the reflection will arrive in-phase and a reinforcement peak will result. There will be additional peaks and dips at harmonic intervals, and others related to alternative reflection paths in the room.
Now the problem in the bass region is not that there are too many of these path-length-related peaks and dips; it's that there are TOO FEW of them! They are spaced widely enough apart to be audible. At midrange and high frequencies we also have path-length-related peaks and dips, but they are so many and spaced so close together that they are not heard as separate and distinct peaks and dips.
I propose using two (or more) subs, scattered around the room in an attempt to maximize the variance between their respective peak and dip patterns. For instance, maybe place one sub near (but not in) the front left-hand corner, and the other sub along the right-hand wall a little bit behind the listening area. A fourth order low pass filter will help conceal the location of that second sub. Barring that, cross over any subs that aren't near the main speakers as low as possible.
There will be a tradeoff: One supersub will go deeper than two half-the-price subs, and probably play louder too. You must resist the temptation of ultralow and ultraloud bass - for it usually comes at the expense of sound quality.
The multisub approach will give you a low frequency sound field more reminiscent of what you'd get in a much larger room. What I'm proposing is an acoustic solution to what is fundamentally an acoustic problem. Equalization would be an electronic solution, and may or may not be more practical - but in this case is probably out of your price range.
Just my $.02. Best of luck to you.
Duke
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Follow Ups
- An argument for multiple subs - Duke 23:36:29 02/28/07 (65)
- Can't argue against two subs ... but your arguments for them are wrong - Richard BassNut Greene 09:24:09 03/02/07 (57)
- Re: Can't argue against two subs ... but your arguments for them are wrong - Craiger56 11:31:55 03/02/07 (0)
- reply - Duke 10:35:32 03/02/07 (55)
- I'll put on my thinking cap and offer a long-winded reply to the reply - Richard BassNut Greene 14:57:17 03/02/07 (51)
- Long-winded reply to, ah... your reply to my... um... reply - Duke 17:13:38 03/02/07 (50)
- scattered multiple subwoofer system - Richard BassNut Greene 09:27:01 03/03/07 (49)
- Re: scattered multiple subwoofer system - Duke 11:36:00 03/03/07 (48)
- The Welti paper is not worth the paper it is printed on if good bass at one seat is your goal - Richard BassNut Greene 09:45:03 03/05/07 (24)
- While I don't agree with some of Welti's conclusions... - Duke 10:08:59 03/05/07 (23)
- Welti averages 16 seating positions -- this is worthless for two-channel audio -- many are confused by his priorities - Richard BassNut Greene 11:19:13 03/06/07 (22)
- Re: Welti comments - twelti 15:48:53 03/11/07 (1)
- Duke caused the commotion by quoting your paper at a primarily two-channel audio website - Richard BassNut Greene 14:33:25 03/13/07 (0)
- The acoustics does not change in the bass region. - Duke 11:42:36 03/06/07 (19)
- If you think computer simulations in one virtual room results in conclusions for ALL rooms, you're a lost audiophile! - Richard BassNut Greene 10:07:21 03/07/07 (18)
- Acoustic principles don't change from room to room - only the specific application of those principles changes - Duke 10:32:08 03/07/07 (17)
- Did it ever occur to you that every so-called "expert" you cite has a DIFFERENT sub location recommendation !!!!!!!!!! - Richard BassNut Greene 08:38:46 03/08/07 (16)
- It is the data I am most interested in; I draw my own conclusions. (nt) - Duke 09:22:19 03/08/07 (15)
- It's the sound quality in a real room that I'm interested in -- not computer simulations never tested by real ears! - Richard BassNut Greene 09:52:24 03/08/07 (14)
- So... if I tell you that I've tried both and my way works best, will that convince you? - Duke 11:36:37 03/08/07 (13)
- Adding a third or fourth subwoofer may improve bass at your seat in your room ... or maybe make it worse! - Richard BassNut Greene 08:26:52 03/09/07 (12)
- Adding additional subs almost always results in smoothing. - Duke 09:29:21 03/09/07 (11)
- $10,000 says my one subwoofer + parametric EQ will be smoother than your three or four subwoofers in 9 out of 10 rooms - Richard BassNut Greene 13:40:32 03/09/07 (10)
- Depends on parameters of the contest - Duke 14:13:09 03/09/07 (9)
- Three or four "scattered subwoofers" all located on the floor = sonic disaster - Richard BassNut Greene 09:23:41 03/10/07 (8)
- not true - Duke 13:58:37 03/10/07 (7)
- Re: some comments - twelti 15:54:39 03/11/07 (6)
- Your paper applies to surround sound but many readers assume 4 subs are best for two-channel - Richard BassNut Greene 08:31:20 03/12/07 (2)
- Re: Your paper applies to surround sound but many readers assume 4 subs are best for two-channel - twelti 21:45:37 03/12/07 (1)
- My mind is open on a third or fourth subwoofer for two channel audio. You seem to have only conclusions. - Richard BassNut Greene 08:53:53 03/13/07 (0)
- Re: some comments - Duke 16:22:24 03/11/07 (2)
- Re: some comments - twelti 19:12:15 03/11/07 (1)
- "Heated exchange"??? - Richard BassNut Greene 09:12:33 03/12/07 (0)
- A more accessible source or two - Duke 14:18:30 03/04/07 (21)
- Earl Geddes' advice is for surround sound home theaters -- it does not apply to two-channel stereo - Richard BassNut Greene 09:52:37 03/05/07 (20)
- Not true - the acoustics does not change. - Duke 10:12:56 03/05/07 (19)
- A comparison of two subwoofer alternatives in one room proves nothing and Earl should be the first person to admit that - Richard BassNut Greene 11:38:55 03/06/07 (18)
- A mistake you consistently make - Duke 11:46:25 03/06/07 (17)
- Still clueless Duke (home theater computer simulations don't identify best sub location for ALL 2-channel audio rooms!) - Richard BassNut Greene 09:15:32 03/07/07 (16)
- It takes one to know one ... ;o) - Duke 10:13:33 03/07/07 (15)
- Average the frequency response at multiple seats "smooths" the bass (average enough seats and standing waves disappear!) - Richard BassNut Greene 09:47:21 03/08/07 (14)
- No, that's NOT what I'm saying. Average the output of multiple subs at any ONE seat. - Duke 12:56:05 03/08/07 (13)
- Duke Duke Duke Duke of Earl .... If I charged you for corrections to your posts, I'd be rich! - Richard BassNut Greene 09:24:58 03/09/07 (12)
- If we both charged we'd both be rich - and I could afford an equalizer and you could afford another sub! - Duke 10:19:41 03/09/07 (11)
- "I am suggesting an alternative that will offer a significant improvement throughout the room," = baloney - Richard BassNut Greene 13:58:53 03/09/07 (10)
- baloney - Duke 01:07:54 03/10/07 (9)
- Not only are you wrong about "scattered subwoofers" for two- channel audio, but your Mother also wears Army boots! - Richard BassNut Greene 09:40:57 03/10/07 (8)
- Time for some quotes - Duke 12:22:59 03/10/07 (7)
- Quotes can be BS too. Where are the two-channel audio listening tests with real human audiophiles? - Richard BassNut Greene 08:45:46 03/12/07 (6)
- "Quotes can be BS too" is not an argument - Duke 11:03:20 03/12/07 (5)
- You've got "experts" -- I've got "experts" But none of them agree on sub locations (the right answer is "I don't know!") - Richard BassNut Greene 09:14:57 03/13/07 (4)
- My turn to question - Duke 14:02:08 03/13/07 (3)
- I think I have just enough steam left to get in the last word - Richard BassNut Greene 15:10:18 03/13/07 (2)
- Show's over folks. Move along. - Duke 15:23:28 03/13/07 (1)
- They were all snoring after my third post ! - Richard BassNut Greene 08:49:18 03/14/07 (0)
- Duke - Craiger56 18:25:25 03/03/07 (0)
- Re: reply - David Aiken 12:53:22 03/02/07 (2)
- Re: An argument for multiple subs - Apokalypse 21:16:03 03/01/07 (4)
- Re: An argument for multiple subs - Duke 11:41:17 03/02/07 (0)
- Re: An argument for multiple subs - murali 05:02:37 03/02/07 (2)
- Re: An argument for multiple subs - Apokalypse 23:22:13 03/04/07 (1)
- Re: An argument for multiple subs - murali 07:47:53 03/05/07 (0)
- What about multiple, different subs - Maxamillion 06:57:08 03/01/07 (0)
- I second Duke's opinion... - Antonio Machado 03:35:23 03/01/07 (0)