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RE: not wishing to appear rude, but I probably will be taken that way...

Posted by Sordidman (A) on September 23, 2008 at 15:33:09

In Reply to: not wishing to appear rude, but I probably will be taken that way... posted by dave c on September 23, 2008 at 14:24:33:

""if you are looking for salvation or transcendence via a rock group"

I think that it's a really big stretch to say that I am looking for salvation; because I think that JD were more than just another great band. Even if one thinks that they were the best band ever: which I would admit to i guess; I still am not looking for any kind of salvation. I can say that they were great, in the same sense that Kafka was great, and Edward Munch was great, and Herzog, - etc.

I am a songwriter and lead bass player: (or was)! And JD had more than a little influence on me, as they did with many others as well. One can definitely hear JD in our music; but one can definitely hear Genesis, PG, GofF, the Clash... as well. So, the concept of therapeutic art, although understood in perhaps a different light, is more compelling. AND, the story of the gestalt of the band and Martin Hannett leaving this world through their music is not addressed in the film, and is the most compelling part!!

""might have been there at the time"

Was in Leeds and into music and taking it all in. I got to see Gang of Four, Clash, etc, but circumstances prevented me from seeing JD live, - unfortunately. Had pals who were way into them and they got me hooked on JD, the Fall, GofF, Clash, etc. etc.....
Again, I don't want to imply that I know more than anyone else, or have any major insights beyond analysis already rendered....

""If you place Curtis on a pedestal and/or are touched by his work, that is obviously up to you, but to write off the fact that he chose to kill himself in a way guaranteeing that he was found by his wife and child is to deny his humanity, his frailty... AND his cowardice.""

Nope. Neither put him on pedestal, nor do I call him a coward. I have no judgment, especially about his suicide. I am sorry that he killed himself before I got to see the band live. If Ian had not killed himself, JD may have gone on to make some great music, they may have gone on to make shite: I don't know... I certainly recognize the roll Martin Hannett played as well; and that should not be discounted, and it wasn't touched on that much at all. Ian's relationship with Bernard, all kinds of stuff.

Both the band and Deborah had a lot of things to say at various points. Sometimes, they were very contradictory. In a moment of what I believed to be total honesty; Deborah said that "Ian wanted to kill himself, and that's what he was thinking about."

Both PH and Bernard always had varying things to say depending on the level of respect they had for the person asking the questions: which is really understandable.

Perhaps I'm placing WAAY to much importance in who JD were, and what they meant to music, and to art. (AND, I think that you're saying so). So, I'll reflect on that, as is natural for me to do.

But watch out, I love the Gang of Four too; so you may see a tirade from me regarding their upcoming movie!! :-) :-) :-)

""guaranteeing that he was found by his wife and child is to deny his humanity, his frailty... AND his cowardice""

In the sense that you say that I'm focusing on putting Ian on the pedestal: (I think that I'm focusing on the art of the band) you seem to be focusing on the tragedy of Ian's selfish act of suicide and how horrible it was to do that to his family.

I don't agree, or disagree, but I think that that is a more minor, and less interesting, part of the story that encompasses the entire band and the events of that time. 24 Hour Party People was so much better. Control seemed to be presenting us a limited, one-sided, and incomplete historical documentary that left so much important work completely untouched, with incredibly superficial character exploration of most ALL of the players involved.

Anyway.. I've gone on about this way more than I wanted to... and repeated my point too much....

I'd just like to say again that I appreciate very much your perspective, as you were there more than I was there, and that carries an important amount of weight...

Cheers,

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