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In Reply to: RE: Jeez, you're kidding? posted by kenster on June 26, 2007 at 09:17:25
Kenster, I already use my DIY version of the WPC-Z plate and insert. I don't think that's the situation here.
Plugs might indeed be an issue, as Duster has recommended to me before as well. But I'm loathe to now add that variable until I settle the outlets first. Or am I thinking incorrectly on that?
Also, bass doesn't seem to have been a big problem for me with the Oyaides to date. I'm not missing anything serious here and as they break in the bass come up to something nice and articulate.
What surprised me was suddenly missing some telltale ultra HF sounds I use to evaluate sonics on one recording. Everything else seemed more detailed, but that seemed almost missing. Not "more articulate but less pronounced", actually attenuated!
Follow Ups:
.........it's the best product Oyaide offers!!
"Plugs might indeed be an issue, as Duster has recommended to me before as well. But I'm loathe to now add that variable until I settle the outlets first. Or am I thinking incorrectly on that?"
If your gut feeling is that the Ultimo as the main outlet is not going to suit your system synergy, then burnin is not going to add anything significant to change your mind.
The synergy differences between the male Oyaide AC plugs and the outlets is significant to the point that even swapping male AC plugs can transform a system.
"Also, bass doesn't seem to have been a big problem for me with the Oyaides to date. I'm not missing anything serious here and as they break in the bass come up to something nice and articulate."
I thought the bass response/agility in my main system was "killer" with the SWO-XXX/P-079/WPC-Z combo....boy was I wrong :-)
"What surprised me was suddenly missing some telltale ultra HF sounds I use to evaluate sonics on one recording. Everything else seemed more detailed, but that seemed almost missing. Not "more articulate but less pronounced", actually attenuated!"
This could be a case of high frequency oscillation which can cause the illusion of better sonics when in reality it is a distortion. Have U damped all your unused AC receptacle ports in your system?
Cheers,
~kenster
Don't know about where the Ultimo fits best. Want to wait (or think I should) wait for break in to decide, then try moving it around.
As to that telltale HF cue I'm looking for, it's true musical info, not RFI or other junk. Different stuff may articulate it differently (I found that Herbie's G2 also subdued this so significantly as to feel like a true loss of info). This is NOT a case of better articulation vs. stronger SPL at that freq.
The cue is on James Carter's "Chasin' the Gypsy". Second cut has some water trickling like sounds (it may be a rainstick) in several places, particularly in the last half of the track. When articulated and present you can hear it clearly; with the Ultimo/XXX combo, all of a sudden it's almost missing in action entirely! That's not a good sign to me and it's a real oddity, as the rest of the HF seems so very present....
There's nothing to say that an outlet cannot even over-emphasize everything up to say 14khz, then drop off suddenly and miss the info from 15-20khz, as an example of what might be happening at this stage.
Now that U have given a clear explanation to what your hearing which is indeed odd, I have run across very similar situations and usually it is due to a shift in the bass balance in your system that is masking the high end details.
Example, when I switched over from a PS Audio Power Port as the main outlet to the SWO-XXX, I had to retune my REL subbass system is the bass was then bloated and illdefined which resulted in the whole audio spectrum becoming muffled....just by changing the main outlet!
Maybe some system retuning to rebalance the spectrum would help?
Cheers,
~kenster
Yes, sometimes it's hard to know how to describe something on this board. I know there's a FAQ on this, but we reach for the best shorthand we can and then we confuse one another! LOL
As with most of you, I have some test tracks that tell me when something is good, bad or indifferent in reproduction. This one happens to be a deliberate part of the musical HF info at the edge of my hearing, so I figure in the 15kHz range or so. Having heard it when testing it on my Al Sekela's very revealing system, as well as on my own much lower resolution system, I know it's there and at least what it ought to sound like, whether emphasized or subdued.
Your balance theory would be easy to test. I could just turn off the sub and use the tone controls to vary the bass and see if the sound reappears.
To be honest, I cannot recall if I ever tested it with the XXX to Furu Cu feeding the digital in the first place. Because that combo was so revealing of HF detail it never occured to me that it might lose something on the top end at the same time. So it's possible that it's not the Ultimo's fault or the combo's fault, but the Furu at the digital end.
Onward and upward????
...of various AC delivery gear is not always a simple matter but well worth the effort, IME (placement of particular AC gear in the delivery chain can be a finicky thing).
As I recall, I had recommended that you use your older model FP-15(Cu) for use with your "various analog accessories" and obtain a new for 2007 Furutech FP-15A(Cu)-N1 for use with your digital gear. While you found the older model FP-15(Cu) to sound great when installed at the wall, it might not offer synergy when placed for use with your digital front end (as I would expect).
If you want to find a satisfactory configuration of the AC gear that you already have, perhaps the Ultimo SWO-XXX should indeed be placed for digital use because the older model Furutech FP-15(Cu) presents a very relaxed treble -- maybe your digital gear is simply not very happy about that matter.
Perhaps the FP-15(Cu) would do well when placed for use with your amplifier as long as it does not cause your NAD amplifier to sound too laid back, which is why I suggested that one of your XXX's be used for your NAD rather than for your digital gear.
Keep up the effort -- often all is (usually) well that ends well...
Yep, you did indeed advise that, Duster. Happens that the Ultimo came up for sale at a good price before I could buy the N1, so that went into the mix.
I'll play around as you suggest when I've finished break in.
Your analysis makes sense. If I read correctly, the old Furu Cu is laid back, XXX sharp, Ultimo probably very sharp - right?
I installed the Ultimo version. It was edgy at first and caused sibilance( If i describe it correctly). However, it's getting better and better now. I wouldn't say mine is totally relaxed, but it provides details that I've never heard of before.
Saying that, i still have old version of Furu 15A cu installed in my PS audio Ultimate outlet.
Oh..another thing i recoginze that Ultimo SWO-XXX provides lots of strong and tight low ends.
IME, sharp is not exactly how I would describe the SWO-XXX's top end (I have no direct experience of the Ultimo version, only the original version), however I do find the SWO-XXX's treble energy to be high, so if placed in a particular system, on a particular component, and/or for a particular listener's wants/needs, that high energy treble could come off as sounding sharp. I also find the SWO-XXX to be very sensitive to what AC plug it's connected to. Mating it with a warmer sounding gold plated Oyaide P-079 is a special thing, and I feel that it's almost a required configuration in order to get the most out of the SWO-XXX. Even so, if a vivid top end is not desired, the SWO-XXX is not likely to please a listener no matter what. For use in my bedroom system, I find an XXX/079 combo to be an excellent thing and in no way "sharp sounding" or even "too energetic" since that system seems to like a sonic push in the top end. Again, I think it all boils down to being a component/system/listener dependant issue, much the same as the choice of cabling is.
Can't find the right words to express it. Not "bright", not "etched". Someone said "spotlighted" and that may be closer, at least in the early break in period.
Here's what I hear (and it's probably HF determined): bigger soundstage in both directions, sense of air, sense of greater clarity, not clinical but white daylight vs. soft yellow light (were this a picture), imaging and separation improved. There's certainly no loss of dynamics, but no appreciable gain either. No loss of LF, but bass does seem tight. No loss of vocal character. If a recording is too digital (piano tells the tale), that's still the case, but it's not emphasized. If the details weren't as distinct they now are.
I think you have a pretty good handle on how the SWO-XXX sounds, bartc. The next step after the Ultimo sees more burn-in time is to dial in your AC plugs. Also, perhaps a new vibration control method or setup might be worth exploring. I place tonewood plinths under most of my gear (with various footers placed on top of the plinths) to not only improve overall listening cues, it's also a good way to reduce the sterile "electronic sonic signature" that audio gear tends to have (to my ear) -- imparting an organic quality to an electronic component in such a way that can tilt it's sonic signature towards being that of a "musical instrument" in a manner of speaking (rather than just damping the heck out of a component in order to try to eliminate all resonances, as if it were a scientific testing device or such...). There's a lot to read on the web about the tonalities of various woods and their use for resonance tuning purposes...
Duster, I use more sterile but not completely sterile vibe controls.
True, the metal to metal roller bearings are definitely not tuneful in the sense wood would be, nor do the seismic sink symp clone shelves nor the norsorex bearings add tone that's detectable.
I do use hardwood half spheres and a thin layer of Herbie's between my speaker cabs and the tile plate they sit on. That is a version of what you're suggesting.
Given the purist tendency toward "neutral" that I've been following with the rest of this bunch, you're certainly suggesting an alternate route.
Tone control denotes a boost or cut in gain within specific frequency bands. Although specific frequency bands may be affected in one way or another, resonance tuning is an entirely different matter. I would rather call resonance tuning, "tonality control", since it affects the entire frequency spectrum; the entire soundstage takes on a particular sonic signature characteristic not unlike how a particular audio system might change it's presentation if moved from one room to another -- perhaps one room sounding better than another due to it's dimensions, what kind of floor, walls, furniture, acoustic panels, etc., which affect how a listener hears the presentation directly via the loudspeakers, how the sound interacts with the room, and how the direct and reflected sound forms a "sonic mix" of both which is then perceived by the ear/brain...
:-D
....is one of the best ideas yet, tuning each piece of gear to your ear and listening tastes. Most of us, whether for lack of time or knowledge, wish for instant plug-and-play, and are disappointed when new goodies don't perform as anticipated (or wished for). That you take the time to do all this benefits all of us. Bravo.
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