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In Reply to: RE: Oyaide v Shunyata venom outlets posted by alan m. kafton on June 24, 2007 at 20:45:36
Hello Alan,
The SR-Z1 outlet is a design unique to Shunyata and Hubbel manufactures it for us exclusively. You are correct that the outer chassis is paterned after the 5362 model because Caelin felt it had better cooling capacity than other models he tested. Caelin has manipulated the internal metals and materials used in the outlet, and uses different internal chassis design elements.
We have in fact upgraded and up-sized the cryo facilities at Shunyata, but that has nothing to do with the "Alpha" term. The term describes the 'treatment' of items, parts and materials that undergo the cryogenic process. Yes, the sequencing and cooling are all essentially the same, but there are materials and processes involved that go well beyond the "normal" dip. Since Caelin came up with that process after some years of testing, it seems fair to mention that without detailing the process for mass consumption. I think you know, Alan, that Caelin is no dummy when it comes to these matters, so I was surprised to see your "marketing" reference.
Our "marketing" is relegated to paid advertisements in magazines, as it should be. We don't camp out in on-line forums or use chat room threads to promote our line, or to belittle other credible lines, such as Oyaide, as Caelin and I feel that would be in very poor taste.
Grant
Follow Ups:
Since Caelin came up with that process after some years of testing, it seems fair to mention that without detailing the process for mass consumption. I think you know, Alan, that Caelin is no dummy when it comes to these matters, so I was surprised to see your "marketing" reference.
To be clear, I met Caelin in '97 before he ever went into business as Shunyata, and on the few occasions we've seen each other since, he *knows* how fond I am of him, and how much respect I have for him as well. My comment about "the marketing" I stand behind, because Shunyata's generic description about the "Alpha" process really doesn't say anything....it's marketing speak, no different than that of many in the audio biz using a phrase or catchy name for a process or procedure that may be proprietary, or not. The list of audio companies (especially cable manufacturers) doing this is endless. While we in manufacturing certainly do NOT wish to disclose our processes, techniques, and/or protocols, the use of generic phrases or nondescript names does get a bit old, in my view....so that is the atmosphere of where I'm coming from. It is precisely because of this generic marketing speak that a thread such as this exists. People want to know more.
We don't camp out in on-line forums or use chat room threads to promote our line, or to belittle other credible lines, such as Oyaide, as Caelin and I feel that would be in very poor taste.
And what are you insinuating here, dear Grant? There was no language whatsoever directed at you, or (certainly) Caelin, or the efficacy of the Venom outlet.
We are of the opinion that copying our web content into your post, likening Caelin's custom-designed outlet to re-named stock, and referencing a term Caelin uses to describe a unique process he developed as "marketing", are out of place given his reputation, and your conflicting commercial interests.
Caelin has always "named" materials, parts and processes that are exclusive to his own design and doesn't view them as "marketing" terms at all. The term Helix Geometry (Patented braid) FeSi 1002 compounds (Patented materials), Venom outlet, Venom filter, Venom AC connectors etc etc were coined only to signify parts and materials _he researched and developed_, not as marketing hooks--who would choose those? :o).
Using the alpha term merely points to it as something he does that goes beyond the normal cryo dip. We're not overtly promoting it or putting the name in adverts, it's merely listed on our web as something unique that he adds. Fairly sundry stuff as far as "marketing promotion" goes...
Caelin had to name the parts, materials and processes he designed _something_, didn't he? These are simply names he uses to refer to his intellectual property. Obviously, you've made an issue out of it and we've noticed, as have others that e-mailed us pointing to your comments.
If Caelin develops a unique process related to cryogenic treatment, he's earned the right to name it without feeling compelled to detail all it involves. Non-invested third parties can make of that what they will, good or bad. People that know him and our products, know that he does not blow smoke, or make up names for "marketing" reasons. He doesn't even think of things in those terms, --but if he did, I'd insist he come up with a better variety of pet names.
I agree with you, that the term "Alpha" is purposely ambiguous and non-descriptive of what the process is, just as the FeSi-1002 and ubiquitous Venom and Helix names do not describe what those parts are, yet like most things, they are critical elements of his design.
> > > "And what are you insinuating here, dear Grant?" < < <
We are insinuating that forums are an inappropriate venue for dealers or manufacturers to cut and paste web-content from their competitors and then offer implied "unbiased opinion" as to what it all means. We are insinuating that your constant presense in threads related to products you sell are not representative of a disinterested third party.
> > > "There was no language whatsoever directed at you, or (certainly) Caelin". < < <
Your original post, with cut and paste content from our web site and ancillary commentary speak for themselves.
Caelin names his own parts and processes and he and I write our web content cooperatively...so... your shooting that sawed-off 12 into a pretty small pond of ducks, Alan.
We don't mind the criticism--see it all the time, we're just surprised you give yourself latitude as a public critic that most of us in this industry don't.
Using the alpha term merely points to it as something he does that goes beyond the normal cryo dip. We're not overtly promoting it or putting the name in adverts, it's merely listed on our web as something unique that he adds. Fairly sundry stuff as far as "marketing promotion" goes...pg 60 june 2007 S'phile, sixth bullet point.
You seem like a nice guy and I don' mean to bust balls but that term is used in your adverts.
No offense taken. You are right, I checked the ad and it is listed that way.
I would be happy with the bullet reading 'on-site cryo treatment', but Caelin uses a material process during cryo that is beyond standard, so I'm comfortable with him designating that-- and with us possibly taking a well deserved lump or two along the way.
Our products and company have been around long enough to allow Caelin's background, body of work and our company business ethics to speak for themselves.
Q
I guess I can appreciate where Alan is coming from when I look at names and terms like "Venom" and "alpha" which are totally uninformative. They may mark something but they leave you totally in the dark about what that something is and why you should care about it.
Actually, I've been considering power conditioners lately and Shunyata's Guardian series are among the ones I've been considering. Two of my reasons for considering them are the reputation of Shunyata products generally and a very favourable review I recently read. Sadly, what I can't find on the web site or in your literature is the answer to one simple question: how isolated is one outlet from another? My audio system has 2 components, a CDP and an integrated amp, and I'd like to have some level of line isolation between the two. I can find all of the uninformative terms but when it comes to a simple statement about one simple performance issue, there is nothing at all. The terminology wouldn't annoy me half as much if the information I was particularly interested in was there, but it does tend to become irritating when you can find lots of terminology but nothing in the way of a clear statement about whether individual outlets or pairs of outlets are isolated from each other. Yes, there's the mention of "Venom filtration" but nothing about whether the filtration is applied to the unit as a whole, to pairs of outlets, or to individual outlets which is what I'd like to know. Surely it isn't too much to ask that some basic information like that be supplied.
David Aiken
I guess I can appreciate where Alan is coming from when I look at names and terms like "Venom" and "alpha" which are totally uninformative. They may mark something but they leave you totally in the dark about what that something is and why you should care about it.
David......you said exactly what I was trying to convey (with humor), and stated it far more effectively as well. Thanks for that.
Hopefully some good will come out of this minor dust-up (unintended by me), and audiophile's will be better informed. That was the only point.
Hello David,
Actually there is quite a bit of information regarding the parts and materials we use. Regardless of their names the parts, materials and their origins are described
In each one of the Hydra spec and product pages there are references to the fact that each duplex outlet is individually filtered from the others. There are also photos that depict the network mounted on a duplex.
That information is likely not referenced in the Guardian sections because the units use one multi-element filter/protection board per unit and not per duplex, reflecting their lower cost. I'll review their info as these sections are relatively new. If that is not clear there I'll make it so.
Is held by Tierry R. Budge; no mention of Caelin Gabriel
That is correct. We licence that patent from Tierry and it is mentioned on the technology page of our web-site.
nt
Howdy
I'll not take sides here. I think you've both expressed your views and intents. Let's let it drop, please.
-Ted
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