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s
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Can fuses even be used in a brand new NEC + local compliant residential service installation? Beats me.
xd
Hmmm + wow... In my world, which may not be other's, the idea is to deliver reliable and safe utility AC to convenience outlets for utilization by the owner. I'm assuming you're referring to 120VAC residential delivery.
99.9% of CBs in residential app's are thermal-magnetic. Mag-only are MCPs, motor circuit protectors. Thermal-only are unknown to me.
You *can not* slap any old circuit breaker in any old panelboard, mix-'n-match style. There is a difference between Listed CBs and Classified CBs.
And its all based on TCCs, time current curves, and coordination with the main breaker. See link below-
I'll take a stout, well designed, well installed, non-Code minimum, residential electrical distribution and grounding system any day over circuit breaker 'sonics' or over the 'tonal shadings' on outlet cover screw paint colors.
I am a 'Safety Wonk' with extreme pride. I come home each evening in one piece w/o any injuries to the joy of all friends, family members, and distant relatives. There is not, and never will be, an excuse for dismissing personal safety on the job.
I agree with you. If in doubt, worst case the fusing and grounding.
Thanks, and I'm outta here. It's such a waste of time trying to assist...
"Thermal-only are unknown to me."
Seems they would be the lowly fuse?
...except the one I asked you to take.
Where did I say, or even imply, that safety wasn't a concern?
Among the available choices of CB I merely wanted to know if anyone had found any type to be better sonically than the others. Geez!
However, I do note a reductionist tendency on your part: "In my world, which may not be other's, the idea is to deliver reliable and safe utility AC to convenience outlets for utilization by the owner." In that case, the definition of an audio system would be to deliver safe and reliable SPLs to the owner's ears.
But we're here, to talk better sound!
clark
Clark, don't be so sandpaper-y on responses when soliciting info and advice on subjects wherein you lack day-one knowledge. Consider 'sonics' of an electrical installation secondary to a safe, high-grade installation.
...and to respond like a gentleman.
clark
Now THAT'S a connector. I've seen C-taps of various sizes, but holy-moly, that's a big-un. I wonder what material(s) it's comprised of??
Can you spell tangent?
What was the question again?
If the breaker is a good quality breaker like that of Square D and the load connected to the breaker is not anywhere near the full load breaker handle rating of the breaker, then I fell to see a problem.
Of more concern, jmho is buss and buss ties the breaker is connected to. Plug in breakers that slide over aluminum buss ties can and do cause electrical noise. Most electrical panels out there today have aluminum buss and breaker buss ties..... One that still uses copper buss and ties is Square D QO quicklag and QOB bolt on.
> > ...and the load connected to the breaker is not anywhere near the full load breaker handle rating of the breaker, then I fell to see a problem. < <
NEC 210.20(A) Since you can't determine end user usage of a branch circuit convenience receptacle in terms of 'continous vs. non-continous' usage, it's always 80% derated. You will look long and hard to find a 15-100A residential grade breaker that is rated for 100% continous duty.
Breakers and conductors are always de-rated 80% (or sized at 125%) in everything I've seen or done in near 40 yrs. in the biz. You have to move into the big stuff to find 100% rated breakers.
NEC 110.2 & 110.3(B) You can't put Joe's breaker's in Bob's panelboard. See the sticker applied to the panelboard for acceptable breakers. See the linked UL article for further info. It's all about short circuit coordination and protection.
> > NEC 210.20(A) Since you can't determine end user usage of a branch circuit convenience receptacle in terms of 'continuous vs. non-continuous' usage, it's always 80% derated. You will look long and hard to find a 15-100A residential grade breaker that is rated for 100% continuous duty. < <
> > > > > > > > > > >
The point I was making is that in almost all cases the load presented on an audio branch circuit is no where near the rating of the branch circuit wiring or the breaker...... Example is a 20 amp branch circuit feeding a CDP..... Trust me the thermal magnetic trip unit of the breaker ain't gonna know the CDP is even out there.
----------------
> > Breakers and conductors are always de-rated 80% (or sized at 125%) in everything I've seen or done in near 40 yrs. in the biz. You have to move into the big stuff to find 100% rated breakers. < <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Commercial and industrial applications yes. You may want to brush up on residential dwelling unit branch circuit load and calculations.....
--------------------------
> > NEC 110.2 & 110.3(B) You can't put Joe's breaker's in Bob's panelboard. See the sticker applied to the panelboard for acceptable breakers. See the linked UL article for further info. It's all about short circuit coordination and protection. < <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Yes I know that.
Jim
x
Stu
I would suspect that thermal breakers would be the least intrusive. However, they can be too slow for some applications. Thermal magnetic breakers are good protectors, but they have a few micro-Henrys of inductance that can ring if not properly damped
s
For DC, usually a fairly large cap (few hundred microfarads) after the breaker works, for AC only perhaps only a resistor across the breaker might work and this could be problematic, but not impossible in many cases.
John maybe I am off base here, but wouldn't plugging in an incandescent 100 watt lamp into the same outlet or outlet on the same branch circuit as the audio equipment have the same result as connecting a resistor across a breaker?
s
nt
Nothing if you install it across the connected load. Just remember the electric meter will see it as as load as well......
Also what about the heat that will be generated?
POWER LINE circuit breakers are not what I am addressing. We often use circuit breakers at in DC power supplies, and internal AC operations such as loudspeaker protectors. You are going to bring out the 'safety wonks' who will dilute anything useful on this subject.
That, sir, is not a happy statement. Being dismissive of safety, regardless of the one's profession, is an extremely flippant remark.
NFPA 70E
Arc Flash
You might consider starting there...
Sorry, but safety comes first.
There is prudent electrical safety, and then there are 'safety wonks' who admonish anyone from doing something that is slightly different from what they think prudent. For the record, 45 years ago, at this time, I was working full time at UL testing electrical appliances. I have some understanding of what is important and what is not, when it comes to electrical safety. In those days, for example we used two terminal ac plugs that were NOT polarized, and we rarely had a problem. Today, that would be forbidden, except with plastic cases. We even had transformerless tube radios in every home, with only a few instances of safety problems, such as having the radio fall into the bathtub, etc. I don't say that we should go completely back in time, but to excessively carp over some solution to an ongoing problem is not appreciated.
c
Howdy
One of the weird things people do around here is take their kids to preschools, etc. right next to large employers just so they have their kids to get into the HOV lanes on the interstate. Doesn't seem like the safest thing for the kids... (I base my observations both on the content of cars at rush hour and on overheard conversations amongst such parents.)
-Ted
d
nt
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