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192.28.2.41
I had an electrician install a dedicated AC line to my listening room last week, after reading about the benefits on this forum.
He used 12 ga. armored cable, run outside the garage wall, which backs up to my room. It's only a short run from the breaker to my listening room, perhaps ten feet. Here is my concern. Instead of using one continueous run of wire, he made two splices inside junction boxes he added. He said this was to follow code.
Being the good anal audiophile that I am, after he left I shut off the new breaker, removed the wire nuts on the splices, Wonder soldered the connections, and re-installed the wire nuts.
I'm still not comfortable though, still feeling that one continueous run would have been better than one with junctions.
Is worrying about this a waste of time? As it was the electrician thought I was nuts. While he had the main power off I went in and cleaned the hot tab where the new breaker was going with Caig de-ox, then alcohol. He said he'd never seen anything like that in twenty years of stringing wire. Welcome to audio-land, Mr. Electrician!
So, should I redo the line with one continuous set of wires or leave it alone?
Thanks for any input.
Follow Ups:
the number of solder joints within your components, then stop worrying about the two extra joints in your dedicated line.
My advice has always been to install as many dedicated lines as you have pieces of equipment. If you want to go further with your installation, do this and relegate the spliced line to a less sensitive piece of gear.
Your point about the number of solder joints is well taken, Al. I tend to let such things bother me more than they should.
I think I've seen you post this answer elsewhere, but to add a second breaker and outlet, install it on the same buss bar to keep the system's AC in phase, correct?
Thanks!
There is a substantial increase in the noise if your second and additional audio circuits are fed from the opposite leg. In other words, there should be zero, and not 240, volts between any hot conductor and any other hot conductor in the AC circuits to your system.
Many folks call these legs "phases," but this is inexact. Most homes have single-phase AC service.
nt
I don't have a technical background so much of the details below are lost on me. I simply printed a few things out and gave them to my electrician: "here, do this please".
If I may, if you run a dedicated line for each piece of equipment, do you then plug in each piece directly into the socket (ie not worry about line conditioning/surge protection)? Or are you using line conditioning/surge protection individually for each piece of gear (I imagine this gets expensive).
Apologies if the anwer to this question is obvious - but I'm learning.
Thank you
Thanks for the detailed responses. Some of these options seem like they are pretty low budget, so I'll get rolling on them. I didn't see this until the Electrician had finished, but I have two separate circuits that I can at least separate everything from the amp. It's the best I can do for now.
I'm either suffering from the placebo effect, or I swear, my system sounds better already and not by a small amount. It seems much more involving, energetic and more well defined. When I re-do the house, I'll get five or six circuits put in for the equipment.
I suppose you guys just rely on home insurance should a surge destroy a piece of equipment? To be honest, I've been running my system on an ungrounded electrical system for 5yrs (old Manhattan apartment, to an old Toronto house), so I guess I've been taking that risk despite my Brick Wall surge protector.
Cheers
There is always a risk of a massive power voltage surge, even in areas with little thunderstorm activity. For example, a drunk driver could crash into a power pole and the resulting electrical mayhem could dump several thousand volts into your house until the power company's automatic protection devices shut it down (this has actually happened in my town).
The small surge protectors sold for home use are just about worthless. They use small devices called Metal Oxide Varistors (MOV) to absorb surge energy. These devices wear out as they absorb small spikes, so they are likely to have much less absorption capacity than when they are new if they have been in service for a while. They are physically too small to absorb much energy in any case.
There are more sophisticated devices available, but these are still physically small and will be overwhelmed by a large spike.
You can get whole-house surge protectors, that are installed by electricians at your power entry point. These are expensive but more likely to protect your equipment and appliances.
My approach is to assume the risk. Equipment with large power transformers is already self-protected by the nature of the transformers' primary windings. The Hammond choke tweak is another good spike protection method. The Brick Wall should work as well, but I don't have experience with it.
Your risk from lack of an AC safety-earth connection is to your safety, not to your equipment. You only have a risk if your equipment has its exposed metal connected to the third pin of the power cord. Some equipment accepts three-wire power cords but does not have this connection.
The main benefit of separate dedicated lines for each piece of equipment is to reduce the coupling of power supply noise among the different pieces. When two pieces share the same line, the noise from unit A's power supply interacting with the line is impressed on unit B, and vice versa. There will still be some coupling at the circuit breaker panel, but this will be much less than what happens in a shared power circuit. The isolation afforded by separate circuits is superior to what any power conditioner could provide.
The individual dedicated lines will still have their own resonance characteristics, which may amplify RF noise present at the breaker panel or originating from the equipment. What I do is plug each of my components into its dedicated line, using the outlet to which the wire is directly attached. I plug an R-C damper into the other outlet of the duplex. The damper reduces the ability of the AC line to resonate.
If you are not able to make your own dampers, AudioPrism makes Quiet Line filters that do the same thing. These filters are also useful on non-audio circuits that have noisy appliances plugged into them.
My system is simple and sensitive to the choice of AC hardware. I don't use surge suppressors with my audio equipment because doing so would introduce an additional set of plugs and outlets into each circuit. I've read that MOV surge suppressors create electrical noise, but I don't have direct experience to confirm this.
The Achilles Heel of MOVs is that each each small hit they take become cumulative, at some point causing their failure without warning. I believe that it is Sony who developed the ZNR surge protector with which small hits do not become cumulative. They are carried by Digi-Key. To the un-initiated, you must use 3 MOVs or ZNRs for complete surge protection of a line. These must be connected as follows : one from the 'hot' wire to the neutral (white wire), one from the neutral wire to the Safety Ground wire (green wire), and the third from the 'hot' wire to the Safety Ground wire.
Hartari, there is a wealth of info in the archives. What you will find is that boatloads of very experienced folks do it a number of different ways. What you might want to start with are those AC areas that must exist no matter what (except for battery powered components of course!):a. you are already installing dedicated circuits
b. the outlet itself (there are many, including Oyaide)
c. compatible power cords, interconnects and speaker cables
d. optimal cable positioning/dressing (given your rack's constraints)
e. RF and noise reducing tweaks (power wraps, 193L Choke Tweak, application of carbon fiber, ERS, etc.)You won't be able to hear the full benefit, if any, of a power conditioner until you take the above steps.
Then you can research power conditioners including balanced power and/or isolation transformers, etc. etc. You can also research whole house surge at the panel including the pros and cons of doing this.
As far as plugging in your components it often depends what type of equipment you have and what type of conditioner you buy. For instance, equi-tech, a leader in the balanced power field urges folks to plug all of their equipment into a balanced power conditioner. Other types of conditioners excel at a digital or analog. Some insist that power amps must be plugged directly into the outlets and only source components should plug into conditioners. Try to be thoughtful about steps A-E above first, and then experiment as much as possible. This will give you time to do your research as a power conditioner can be expensive.
I assume 230V is preferable . . .
Hi.
I've DIY installed dedicated powerlines for both my 120V & 240V gears, with inline powerline RF noise filters, discretely for analogue & digital gears, never mixed.
I simply tapped them from my house fuse panel which got both 120V & 240V terminals (typical for Northern American homes). The powerline coming in my house from the distribution transformer outside is already 120V-0-120V balanced (hopefully 100% fully balanced).
So you are correct for 220-240V audio equipment, using the 120V+120V terminals, there will a floating AC powerline situation where a forced
balanced can be achieved. This will help cancel out tons of outside RFI/EMI noise riding on the powerline into your equipment.
That's why I prefer 240V AC mains for my gears which are switchable 120V/240V.
But in this 120V+120V situation, bear in mind this is live wire for both arm of the powerline. Do not assume one arm is live, so the other arm must be neutral similar to standard 120V outlets.
c-J
PS: if you are not dead sure, do NOT, repeat, NOT play the fuse/breaker panel.
Hi.
Firstly off, install two runs, one for yr digital equipment, e.g. CD and/or DVD players, switch-mode digital amps, & power supplies, etc. The other run is exclusively for your anologue stuff, e.g. all your analogue amps, LP turntable, tuner, tapedecks, etc etc.
Don't use common powerline for both digital and analogue gears. I have measured RFI/EMI noises emiitted from a CD or DVD player into the powerline whenever it is switched on.
Secondly, install a dedicated INSULATED ground wire (of minimum same size of the powerline conductor) for each run, hooked up directly to the panel central common ground.
Try not to splice the powerline & ground conductors. There is NO need of doing so.
c-J
He used 12 ga. armored cable, run outside the garage wall, which backs up to my room. It's only a short run from the breaker to my listening room, perhaps ten feet. Here is my concern. Instead of using one continuous run of wire, he made two splices inside junction boxes he added. He said this was to follow code.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Rule number one, ask questions before the work is started. Have the electrician walk you though the project and explain how he will be doing the wiring job.
Not being able to see the job I can only guess how he wired the branch circuit. By your description of the project he used MC cable. He had to get out of the panel, and I assume the panel is recessed flush in a finished wall. There is one box, one set of joints. He installed the box for appearance. Second box, again for appearance he set the box and exited the back to feed the receptacle rough-in box. Another set of joints here.
Sound about right?Several things he could of done different to eliminate the joints.
(1) Installed EMT conduit exposed on the wall of the garage still setting the two boxes for appearance. EMT would of looked a hell of a lot better on the wall than MC cable. At the feed end from the panel to the first box he could of used (GF), Greenfield, flexible metal conduit. The same at the other end run of the EMT and box, for the receptacle box feed. He then would have had an empty raceway to pull the solid conductor branch circuit in continuous with out any joints.(2) He even could of done it with the MC with a little more work. It would of required still using GF from the panel to the first box and from the second box to the recept box. On each end of the MC he would remove enough of the metal armor from the wire, for the wire to extend through the GF and for make-up.
There are other methods as well......
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >As for where you are now:
10ft #12 awg solid wire, plenty big.
If the joints were twisted before the electrician installed the wire nuts again fine. Providing he used a compression type wire connector like "Scotchlok" brand or equal.
I violated rule number one, for sure.
Your assessment of what was done is fairly accurate, except that the Greenfield flexible metal conduit is what he used. You're right about the pannel box being recessed into the drywall and how he ran the line to keep the cable flat.
I should have explained what I wanted, but I'm sure he figured "neat, clean and safe" was what I wanted. Safe, yes. Two extra splices, no.
I think it's easily correctable with a bit of work.
Thanks for your input.
I should have explained what I wanted, but I'm sure he figured "neat, clean and safe" was what I wanted. Safe, yes. Two extra splices, no.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >His way was by the book. But, NEC code is bare minimum. The method he used was quick and simple and the cheapest way to do the job to save you money. If you had told him you did not want any joints he would of done as I described in my second example. Time, about an additional half hour.
To be honest with you if the wires were twisted together before you soldered the joints I doubt if you could hear any difference if the wires were continuous.
After about a month you will forget all about it. Enjoy your music.....
Jim
Knowing me, I doubt it. But I don't think it's too difficult a fix, as you have already suggested.
Oh, and keep using those Scotchlok connectors! (guess who I work for?)
Thanks again.
Howdy
When I had dedicated lines run at my old house we used #10 stranded wires in conduit outside the house from the breaker box and then short romex style solid pigtails inside to the outlets. In my new house he used #10 stranded all the way from the breakers to the outlet by going to a box outside the house then in conduit to the outlets. Some argue that the metal conduit might be worse for sound than the extra splices... However I agree with other posters that this is all in the noise (so to speak) compared to the overall benefit of dedicated lines.
-Ted
I'm having my dedicated lines put in tomorrow. I'm doing one 15amp and one 20amp and have purchased audio-grade outlets.
Can I ask what I should ask the electrician to do specifically? Here's what I plan on telling him:
1. Use 12ga. armored cable (is any 12ga OK)? He told me that the ground in the house is 14ga, so having 12ga shouldn't make a difference at all - but he'll certainly use the grade I want. Any reason to go to 10ga?
2. A continuous line
3. Make sure the house ground is secure/clean/re-apply as necessary.
Is there anything else I should do? Should I get him to solder to the outlet, or is it best I do that on my own after he's gone? Sorry to hijack the post.
Thanks
a. continuous run...no splicing
b. make sure he runs 1 hot, 1 neutral and 1 insulated equipment grounding conductor PER circuit. No shared neutral.
c. consider using plastic boxes instead of metal. Search the archives under Al Sekela's name with keyward "plastic box" "dedicated circuit"
d. In the panel, place both dedicated circuits on the SAME leg but on the OPPOSITE leg of major applicances (washer/dryer, fridge, dimmer lighting, etc.). See if he can re-organize the panel to achieve this.
e. I had trouble finding 10awg armored cable. Some rec 10awg, but 12awg is widely used and made an audible improvement for me.
...of 8' ground stakes near the main panel and running a new 4g. ground wire to them. Or, if the existing ground stakes are already near the panel, add a new pair farther away. AFAIK, there's no problem associated with IMPROVING the ground.
If you'll be feeding more than one duplex outlet, be sure NOT to break the wires at the 1st outlet. IOW, the continuous run should continue to the last outlet on that line.
-------------------------------------------------------
Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
Most of the archieves mention 10g wire for decicated circuits. If your going to the trouble already...plus it will keep you thinking "maybe i should of put in 10g), and why not use two 20amps circuits. Just a couple of thoughts. Good luck
the code should be "if you splice a wire, the splice needs to be inside a box". Now, the question is why did he splice the wire? A ten foot run should have been a continuous run of wire IMO.
I asked him that after he was done, and he said it was so the armored cable would lay flat against the interior garage wall. Otherwise it would have had two rather large loops, one from he breaker box, and one into the wall that leads to my listening room.
So it was primarily aesthetics, I'm assuming. And for the average homeowner, this makes sense having the cable laying as flat against the wall as possible.
But for what I was trying to achieve I think it was a mistake.
A few posts back you mentioned the armored cable (AC) being run up the OUTSIDE wall? Do you mean the cable was run on the exterior of your house? If so, that is a violation of the National Electric Code and should be replaced by the contractor who did it. Have them install EMT conduit with over-sized #10 wires and a separate ground wire.
There's another problem with using AC cable. The ground is the casing and it sux to begin with, but will especially once it corrodes from being outside!
You could also have a separate "isolated" ground conductor installed in addition to the normal ground wire. The isolated ground would be run directly to the ground rod for the service and be connected to a special isolated ground receptacle in your listening room.
Have fun.
Well, Kenster is much better versed on these things than me, but I think the biggest benefit of a dedicated line is that it does not have a bunch of other crap on it (Microwave, frig, computers, six lamps, etc).I do have a dedicated line and it is a single run.
The ironic thing is that 12 ga Romex is like 69 cents a foot or something.
I know there is 10ga and you can get it Cryo-ed, but my guess is that you have achieved 98% of the benefit already by getting a dedicated line no matter how he spliced it.Now, I would do the outlets (you may have already done so).
Of course there is the whole power cord thing, too.
And contact enhancers..........
Crazy, but it all makes a difference.
I also am trying an Alan Maher Power Enhancer (nice product).:)
I'm in agreement with you about the biggest benefit of the dedicated line being the lack of other "crap" on it. I couldn't believe how many outlets, lights, ceiling fans, etc. were on my hi-fi circuit.
I've got the Acme cryo'ed outlet installed, and a box of VH Audio power cord DIY parts ready to be assembled.
I'm trying to be open minded about this whole AC thing. My logical mind tells me it shouldn't make a difference, but I'm giving it a go anyway. I've heard differences between speaker cables, interconnects, etc., so why not AC?
Thanks!
I have spent more time and energy on the AC thing than speaker wire and IC's.
It is not that I have not auditioned a range of wire and IC's, but I have experienced the biggest gains and benefits in changing out power cables, outlets, getting the dedicated line, etc.
AC is the first element that your system must negotiate and convert downstream and ensuring its integrity gets it all going in the right direction.
The VH Audio power cords are great by the way. I used them for years until trying something different recently. The Flavor 4 especially is a great all around performer on a variety of gear.
I am sure your changes will all be beneficial.
I certainly defer to others more experienced and knowledgeable about the splicing thing-it might very well be better if it was a single run.
Your concept of the AC being the begining of the food chain makes good sense. That's why I went for the dedicated line before I started fooling with the power cords.
Thanks for the nod toward the VH Audio power cords too. I'm looking forward to trying them. I just have to find the time to make them now. Most of my equipment doesn't have IEC inlets, so I'll have to hard-wire them in, which will take a bit more time.
Appreciate all your feedback!
If I was to have a dedicated line installed,I would prefer to have one continuous run from the breaker panel to the outlet but maybe in SC, it is code that wherever there is a junction box, that the line must be spliced. U could call another electrician and ask him/her what the code is.
"Being the good anal audiophile that I am, after he left I shut off the new breaker, removed the wire nuts on the splices, Wonder soldered the connections, and re-installed the wire nuts."
I have done the very same with the line that feeds my main system and on the 2 daisy chained outlets preceeding my main outlet, I reattached the wires to the outlets by wrapping them around the screws instead of using the speed connections.
"I'm still not comfortable though, still feeling that one continueous run would have been better than one with junctions."
If it turns out that it is not code to have the splices at the junction boxes, I would have it rewired...by a different electrician of course :-)
"As it was the electrician thought I was nuts."
LOL, most of them do but I have run across a couple that share the same fanaticism that we do.
How does your system sound with the new dedicated line?
Cheers,
~kenster
I listened to it the night it was installed, and to be honest, I couldn't tell any difference. It was late at night, and the system always sounds pretty good then. During the day my PS Audio Duet conditioner makes a clear improvement, but at night it's a "maybe".
If "burn in" is a factor, then there are many reports on this board that the Acme silver cryoed outlet will take some time as well.
If nothing else, I was looking for some peace of mind with the dedicated line, knowing that there was nothing else on there but my audio system. The splices took away a bit of that peace of mind, which is why I posted my question.
Thanks for the imput Kenster!
T
The guy tried to do a nice clean job with botched instruction. He was told to use BX (metal shielded) cable, which will not bend at sharp angles without breaking the outer shield. He added the boxes to make connections keeping the BX straight and neat.
You can run wire in a thousand junction boxes but there is no requirement to make a splice in any of them, although it will look like crap and cost like h***.
Stop second guessing him and think about what you really want. Stop listening to innuendo and hearsay, get professional advice ,then you'll get what you want and get it done correctly.
Next time ask him to run 12Ga. romex in EMT then you'll get a line in code rated for 20 amps and the shielded wire you want. (By the way if the romex is to be run outside a wall it is required to be run in metal conduit to protect it.)
"The guy tried to do a nice clean job with botched instruction. He was told to use BX (metal shielded) cable, which will not bend at sharp angles without breaking the outer shield. He added the boxes to make connections keeping the BX straight and neat."
I take it U have actually seen the installation?
"Stop second guessing him and think about what you really want. Stop listening to innuendo and hearsay, get professional advice ,then you'll get what you want and get it done correctly."
R U addressing me or the OP?
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