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In Reply to: RE: how far away from you is the NPR station's transmitter? posted by Timbo in Oz on March 12, 2019 at 22:12:38
I am roughly 20 miles from the transmitter as the crow flies....and I am up high already. (approx 2000 ft above sea level)
Yes, its a whip.
With the sleuth off signal meter is around 7.5 or 8, with sleuth on its almost 10.
I dont hear any increase in noise with the Sleuth on. Pretty high resolution system.
I am sure that noise would increase if you turned the Sleuth gain up, but I dont need to.
Had an outdoor antenna for a long time....signal just as clean with the indoor whip.
But, again I am pretty close to the transmitter and up higher.
Follow Ups:
But, I'd still ditch the Sleuth and get a basic 3 element FM antenna pointed at the transmitter.
The whip you have isn't an FM antenna, it's a boat antenna.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Yes, well, you may call it a boat antenna, but Magnum Dynalab calls it an ST 2 omni-directional FM antenna.
Naturally I use it in the Mountain Configuration...which is proprietary.
so there.
the wavelength at 98MHz from FM is about 3 metres. IE about 10 feet.
The ST 2 isn't even mildly resonant at such frequencies.
Do try to get your head around that.
IF you invest, up high as you are, in a simple cheap FM Yagi, 3-4 elements, pointed right AT the transmitter, you -will- hear a big improvement.
I am not interested in dissing MD as a thing to do, but I am interested in maximising your music.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Tim,
Are you saying I would be better off with an SR100 antenna?
Easy to test, I have one of those too.
Thanks
I use the SR100 for my 310E with pretty good results. Tried the whip but didn't think it did any better in my situation. Both achieved a value of 7 on the strength meter but for some reason the SR100 sounded quieter to my ears than the ST-2. As always YMMV based on your situation. NPR Classical here as well!
I live in a rural pocket in an urban area....if that makes sense...and 2000 ft up, so the incoming FM trash is minimal.
I have not tried the SR100 with the 4312.....yet.
My "boat antenna" nearly pegs the meter and the signal is strong and clean enough to turn on the "sweet spot" light (I am sure there is a Scott name, but I dont know that.)
My system is pretty high resolution and I usually hear no noise, even though I am told my Signal Sleuth is a source of noise.
Hi...I'm a fan of Magnum Dynalab. Also had an early MD101 for many years till I finally found my 310E, which of course added richness and depth of sound stage I've never heard before with the MD but no surprise there as I'm a tube guy for the most part.
Not familiar with this "sweet spot" button, what is it? My Scott doesn't have it.
Back to your tuner set up. If the whip and sleuth work for you, that's great. If others suggest things here in the forum, you did post as well, you don't have to follow peoples advise or should feel like you need to defend your position. What matters in the end is the happiness that your system set up brings to you, so don't let it bother you. But I've always believed that the collective knowledge within this site, with some few exceptions, is very good and only means to help others with Q&A.
Not to familiar with the 4312 model but I'm a big Scott tuner fan and like hearing when others have found them too, so enjoy!
Edits: 03/17/19
I had a 310 E for several years. Unfortunately I could not keep my hands out of it and in the course of "improving" the sound, I knocked the alignment off and it never recovered.
I have an LT 110, and three 312s which is the "consumer" of the 4312.
And a 310 D and 335 multiplex adapter....Lord too many tuners and that's only the Scotts.
The 4312 is the best sounding tuner I have had so far, of course considering the poor antenna system I am using (lmaof)
I appreciate the thought about responding to perceived criticism. I suppose I should be more appreciative of listening tests from 7000 miles away.
The Audio Critic article reference is interesting. I used it as a "bible" for a long time. In some ways it is instructional, but in the same way as I dont need to know how to play a violin to appreciate Beethoven's fiddle concerto, I really dont need to have an advanced degree in FM engineering to know good sound when I hear it.
I did buy the Signal Sleuth after reading this.
Peace my brother.
The ST 2 whip can do little to nothing about multipath de-tuning where, as Timbo suggested, the SR-100 silver ribbon will offer you some adjustability.
And if memory serves me, the SR-100 has more gain than the ST-2, which is poor.
Below is a link to The Audio Critic FM issue. I never agreed with their "If two amplifiers measure the same, they will sound the same" conclusions. But their discussion and testing of FM tuners and indoor antennas (including your MD Signal Sleuth) is VERY informative.
To quote from the article, and to hammer home a point Timbo and others frequently make here, there's no substitute for a good antenna.
"Just think of it this way: a $300 antenna installation driving a $300 tuner is going to work a lot better than a $600 tuner connected to a cheap indoor antenna. The reason is that the fundamental limitations of an FM receiver require that the signal at the antenna input be free of noise and multipath if the tuner is to operate at maximum performance."
"Suddenly, I'm not half the man I used to be. 'Cause now I'm an amputee" J. Lennon
Since quoting the Audio Critic seems important to our discission: "I tested the Signal Sleuth with a setup midway be-tween these two, using the AudioPrism 8500. In some cases the Signal Sleuth did nothing to improve the signal, but it was able to deliver one previously unlistenable NPR station in decent mono and it improved another NPR station from strictly mono to somewhat noisy ster-eo. It worked well enough for me to make me decide to buy it."
After reading this what? 20 years ago?, I decided to buy the Signal Sleuth too...apparently that was a terrible mistake. Who knew?
Ok....I am completely wrong. I do not hear what I clearly hear because I dont have the Timbo approved antenna.
And my signal amplifier (Signal Sleuth) is introducing noise I can't hear because Tim says it is there from what 7000 miles away?
Of course there is more to it than pegging the needle....the more to it is what I hear.
I have, over 40 or so years, tried every type of FM antenna known to man.
I have never, ever, gotten better SOUND FROM TUNERS IN MY SYSTEM, than I do with the whip antenna and Signal Sleuth.
I am sure the Audio Critic piece is interesting because I have read it before. It is in the same issue of the publication that tells me McIntosh gear sounds the way High End Audio should sound.
Folks, each FM reception environment is different. While I have no doubt that Tim is spot on in theory, he does not, has never, probably won't hear my system, so his speculation is just that.
And I appreciate his time and yours, trying to convince me my ears have failed and I dont hear what I clearly hear.
Magnum Dynalab are 'the' global standout for 'advertising prowess'.
I learned - as an infantry-man and eventual 'top-kick' in a Company.
In British C'wlth terms a Company Sergeant Major. ...
That (for transmission (and reception), that antennas and where it is, really, really, mattered.
Trust me, if you replace the boat antenna and the Sleuth, with a good 3-4 element FM antenna, AND have the Scott properly serviced, you will be very surprised.
Musically.
I do not HATE, MD, as a company, I simply understand how they get away with it. You haven't got the knowledge to see MD for what they are!
Viz. Not ONE of their tuners use valves / tubes in their RF front-ends, where the real RF (Radio Frequency) tube/valve 'magic' lyes.
This means that not ONE of their tuners is 'a valve-tuner'. As they claim.
LBNL, what sort of music do you mostly listen to?
My serious listening to FM happens through a tube-front-end FM stage, to live acoustic - classical - music. In real time.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Tim,
Thanks for your comments and suggestions. Clearly you know more about the tech aspects of FM than I do.
I am aware of MD's position.
It seems what you are saying is that having a pegged signal meter on the tuner and the sweet spot light lit is a relative indication of signal strength and may or may not be an indication of sound quality.
Do I have that right?
As I think I said, I only hear noise from the signal amplifier when I turn the gain way up, but I dont doubt what you say about it doing ugly things to the sound.
The 4312, as you probably know, was Scott's last top of the line tuner with a tube (Nuvistor) front end.
Thanks for taking the time.
A long time ago, I was the equivalent of an NGuard NCO (infantry Australian) and on my way to company top-kick (Company Sgt Major) in the real army. So, I carried a good few radios - for command & control - for louies and Captains, Majors, and on up.
I found that good reception was not always available where I and the radio were, and that moving around was a good idea. That reception and clarity / speed, was often best where cover from fire or sight was NOT good, at all, concentrated the mind wonderfully.
I thus became a total enthusiast for the best possible antenna and the most gain, and the best possible position.
The manifest obsession on this site - with - tuners themselves - needed, and still needs, challenging.
I will not stop it!
okay?!
And, the ST2 really IS a boat antenna, repackaged, by MD.
Dja wanna TS chit, for that? ;-) aka 'tough shit'.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
You certainly challenge my language good sir.
I do appreciate the time you take to preach your gospel.
Your experience in the service of your country is admirable.
Possibly a good boat antenna would have saved you considerable effort.
It certainly does so for me.
Peace, Brah
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