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In Reply to: RE: It's a matter of definition. posted by Presto on December 09, 2024 at 15:43:01
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Follow Ups:
A planar with no other drivers? That's about as full-range as you can get.
Add a woof like Martin Logan does? Then you have a 2-way just like the fullrange/supwertweeter guys. :-)
Of course, one could argue that if a crossover point is high enough, or low enough, the second driver doesn't count.
I won't argue with those guys, because... there would be no point. ;-)
Cheers,
Presto
Of course, one could argue that if a crossover point is high enough, or low enough, the second driver doesn't count.In the HT system, I use smallish stats that need a pair of subs to provide adequate dynamic range. They are actively crossed below 80 hz which in *theory* should eliminate localization. I place them at room diagonals to minimize modes and use parametric EQ to flatten measured response .
But, they just don't sound truly as coherent as the Sound Labs used upstairs which need no augmentation. There is an audible seam in character.
Edits: 12/11/24
I can think of several possible explanations for the audible "seam" between your smaller stats and the separate woofers. In no particular order:1. Level matching.
2. Crossover slopes.
3. Placement.
4. Room acoustics.
5. Impulse response.
6. Amplifier sonic signatures.
7. Speaker directivity.
8. Psychology.Not having heard that system in your room, and not knowing any of the details of the setup, I won't attempt to suggest a "fix". But these are areas to look at.
*********
We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
Edits: 12/12/24
8. Attempting to blend dipole bass with monopole subwoofers.
Solutions available , but not interested in investing amount required for that system.
Ha! I just edited my post to add directivity, and then saw your reply.
I didn't "omit" anything, I just offered some things which came to mind. As I wrote, I don't know any of the details of your system.
*********
We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
As I wrote, I don't know any of the details of your system.
that detailed information about my systems, musical preferences and pics is available with a couple of clicks? No need to speculate. :)
Try it!
I typically don't do that. Mostly, I just reply to posts. :)
*********
We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
The Sound Lab Majestic is arguably one of the more full range drivers made.
There is a crossover in it to manage the two matching transformers which interface between the amplifier input and the driver; one is for bass and the other is for the mids and highs. Their outputs are in parallel driving the same load.
Quite a different beast from cone drivers which simply can't manage the same things! The Sound Labs aren't beamy and have bandwidth well past 20KHz, and bass response to 22Hz IIRC (might be lower).
with either Acoustat or Sound Lab products is a blender where the output of the frequency optimized transformers is combined and sent to the full range panel.
The result is a pretty tame impedance curve vs. a "Scream Machine roller coaster" curve found on single transformer models from Sanders, Quad, etc.
Here is Dr. West's explanation:
"The requirement to have both low and high frequency transformers has to do with lower frequency transformers requiring more coil turns than higher frequency transformers to provide a suitable input impedance for an audio amplifier, and vice-versa. The reason for this is that a transformer is basically an inductance, and the impedance of an inductor is proportional to frequency. Thus, a given inductor has a lower impedance at lower frequencies than at higher frequencies and therefore requires a higher inductance (more turns on the primary and secondary coils) than a high-frequency transformer. Also, another factor needs to be considered, as the number of turns is increased the internal shunt capacitance of the coils increases and also the coil resistance is higher due to more windings. The coil resistance and the shunt capacitance act as a single-pole low-pass filter which lowers the high-frequency cut-off frequency.
In brief:
1. A low-frequency transformer with a higher number of coil windings is necessary to have an acceptable input impedance. However, the higher number of turns reduces the high frequency response and therefore the transformer cannot be used for high-frequencies.
2. A high-frequency transformer requires fewer turns to achieve an adequate input impedance and therefore cannot reproduce lower frequencies since the impedance would be too low for an amplifier to drive.
3. Without going into details, the toroid core is just one continuous metal strip that is wound into a doughnut-like core and provides better reproduction at higher frequencies.
4. The audio spectrum is essentially 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz, thus the ratio of HF to LF is 1000. This makes it nearly impossible, if not impossible, to have one transformer provide the proper input impedance for all frequencies since lower frequencies require more coil turns than higher frequencies. The only choice would be to have very low (unacceptable) impedance at low frequencies and acceptable impedance at higher frequencies, or acceptable impedance at lower frequencies (many coil turns) which would restrict the higher frequencies. Thus, we use two transformers, one that is optimized for lower frequencies and one that is optimized for higher frequencies."
One of the people on that email thread I mentioned had a matching transformer wound for him on an enormous toroid core that had full bandwidth and no need of a crossover. He seemed to think it worked a lot better than the Toroidal One backplate, but I don't know anyone that heard it since he was in Australia.
"enormous transformers" are not ideal for HF reproduction or else the resulting impedance curve is not amplifier friendly like production.
No roller coaster found in the speaker's range.
Wow, I'd love to hear those!Crossovers are not "all things evil" per se. Large coils on low-pass filters have insertion loss and cost a lot - lots of copper in the windings. Some folks prefer to minimize caps in the tweeter signal path (shunt caps a lesser evil than series ones, according to most).
Impedance bump and rise compensation and equalization for flatter response are usually good things. A 2-way 90db SPL speaker with 90db SPL tweeter is a red flag - no baffle step compensation there, which can make a 2-way design sound very lean especially if it's out in the room where stand-mounts image best. (85/86db speakers are commonly the result of equalization and baffle step compensation...)
Some might abhor the use of transformers, but, they'd then need to abhor the output stage of a single ended tube amp!
In any case, I will definitely be looking into those specific speakers if only to better understand how they work. :-)
Cheers,
Presto
Edits: 12/11/24 12/11/24
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