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In Reply to: RE: Implementing Full Range drivers posted by Inmate51 on November 29, 2024 at 06:53:05
The term full range driver is not a misunderstanding and is not incorrect terminology. In 1934 when the first full range driver was available for sale it was the world's first full range driver, and it was housed in the world's first corner horn encloser. And was rightfully named a full range driver for good reason. In 1934 the best speaker systems of the day was Western electric consisting of 15" or 18" paper cone woofers and large format compression drivers with 4" diaphragms mounted to huge wooden horns. These systems had a frequency range of 60 HZ to 12000 KHZ this was full range for the world's best speaker system in 1934. The frequency range of the first full range driver was 60 HZ to 12000 KHZ so it was rightfully named a full range driver.
This was not marketing, and it was certainly not due to the consumer audiophile industry and the term full range driver predates the audiophile industry by decades. Paul Voigt is the man with the patent on the whizzer cone/full range driver he also holds patents for the first tractrix horn contour and the world's first corner horn and his work on quarter wavelength led to the Voigt pipe aka transmission speaker. The man had 19 patents in the audio industry and is one of the most important figures in the history of the loudspeaker.
As far as full range driver performance the Lowther Hegman reproducer made 1950 to 1951 is one of the most important speakers in history. It was a front & rear loaded horn using one 8" Lowther PM4A 8 driver this driver had 24000 gauss in the voice coil gap !!! in 1934 !!!! this amazing speaker had a frequency range from 30 HZ to 20000 KHZ. Lowther is reproducing them today still with a single 8" full range driver that plays from 35 HZ to 20000 KHZ. I have worked with every driver on earth and the only drivers that have that type of magnet strength are large format compression drivers that were 22000 gauss. Find another paper cone driver with 24000 gauss strength in the voice coil gap it can't be done!
Saying you have never seen in person or on paper a full range that can play from 30 HZ to 18000 KHZ is misleading. When talking about full range drivers you're mainly talking about drivers from 3" to 8" diameter show me any dedicated woofer from 3" to 8" that will play down to 30 HZ. Speakers using 5" 6" or 8" non full range drivers will not play down to 30 HZ so how could a full range of equal size play to 30 HZ?
What is a speakers F3? it simply means the speaker is down 3db from average so most speakers with 6" or 8" woofer will have a F3 from 50 HZ down to 40 HZ so by the time the get to 30 HZ they are 6db or more down in volume. So when you say flat down to 30 HZ for full range drivers that makes no sense unless you just have dislike for full range drivers and you're hugely exaggerating. There are not many speakers that will play flat down to 30 HZ and the ones that do have 12" & 15" woofers, or they are a subwoofer.
There are full range speakers on the market that will play flat from 45 HZ to 20000 KHZ these full range drivers will need no notch filter or eq They have been measured independently and the information is all over the web
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They are popular in my opinion. All Zu speakers use a 10" Eminence full range the Tekton Lore uses the same Eminence driver without the phase plug and beauty ring the Zu speaker uses. The Ohm Walsh speakers from 1972 to 1981 used a single full range driver and were very popular. Omega speakers have models using a single full range driver Cube audio also have models using a single full range driver. Pure audio project use Tang band 8" full range along with 15" Eminence for bass and even the world's most known speaker manufacturer JBL had models with a single full range driver like the JBL C48 Madison. Lowther also are still making amazing speakers using a single full range driver including one of the most legendary speakers ever produced the "Lowther Hegman reproducer"
In Europe brands like Beyma, B&C, Lowther and Monacor all make full range whizzer/dual cone drivers and there are manufacturers in Europe that use those drivers in commercially available speakers. In Asian countries they have very popular Fostex, Lii song, Tang Band and Sb acoustics all make full range drivers and many more lesser known brands.
Full range are actually more used than multi driver speakers if you count all the old school table top radios from the mid 1930's to the 1960's just about all Tv's ever produced factory car speakers even today with a few exceptions. Walkie talkies, headphones, all telephones that were ever made including smartphones. Full range speakers are all around us everyday most people in the world use full range speakers daily and have for a very long time.
Quick list of full range drivers available today off the top of my head so I am sure iam leaving some brands out. I am not going to include vintage or out of business or out of production models. The list would be too long and I can't remember all of them off the top of my head with my 53 year old memory.
Mark audio, Audio nirvana, Lii song, Fostex, Lowther, Tang band, Eminence, Cube audio, Omega, B&C, Beyma, Monacor, Sb acoustics, Dayton audio, Fane, Celestion
Thanks for your reply to my post, and sorry for my late response.
I see in a post from today that you're a speaker designer. I took a look at your AA profile, and saw "SPC designs". When I googled it, I did not see a result which was relevant to loudspeakers in Florida. So, do you or your employer have a website? What is it?
You mentioned some current drivers as being "full range":
"There are full range speakers on the market that will play flat from 45 HZ to 20000 KHZ these full range drivers will need no notch filter or eq They have been measured independently and the information is all over the web "
In the interest of expediency and accuracy, would you mind citing a few of the specific drivers you're referencing. I don't mind looking them up, but I don't want to waste time searching for an unknown driver(s). Thanks.
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We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
I do not have a website. I was at one time going to start a website for DIY speakers called SPC designs but never did. Life got in the way. I have an elderly parent I am a full-time caregiver, and I have a disabled son well he is not my biological son he was a homeless 18 year old my family took in now he is 35 mentally he is only about 11 to 12 years and he takes a good bit of my time it gets really hard sometimes but he is worth it as far as I am concerned he is my son and will always be my son. If I ever do a website in the future, it will be a DIY speaker website to teach speaker design. And anyone that has a design with measurements could also post their design a collaboration of DIY speaker design so people could post and share their passion.
Many audiophiles don't know that without DIY the high-end audio industry as we know it would not exist. Back in the late 40's into the sixties DIY was king. Frank McIntosh sold kits yes, the most famous well known American audio company sold kits so did Harman Kardon one of the most sold amplifiers of all time was the Dynaco St-70 sold in kit form from 1959 to 1983 still sell today thanks to the internet. Companys like Heathkit sold kit speakers with Altec Lansing components. DIY was so important to the audio industry that's why Nelson Pass has his burning amp festival once a year dedicated to DIY a lot of people don't know you can buy a Nelson Pass designed class A amplifier kit right now and its incredibly affordable. Watch the John Atkinson interview with Sean Casey founder of Zu audio on YouTube he talks about spending 25 years DIY designing speakers before he started ZU audio. Eric Alexander founder of Tekton races dragsters is a drummer in a band had a good job started designing speakers and then started Tekton. John Devore of Devore fidelity same thing watch his video on YouTube he started designing speakers due to the fact he could not buy speakers he really liked so he took it upon himself and started designing DIY and then turned that into a successful business. So needless to say, DIY is very important to the audiophile industry and with the internet and all the information in the world at your fingertips DIY should make a comeback. Nelson Pass has a saying he has been saying for years " The amplifier that sounds the best is one you build yourself " Not everyone can design and build their own amp that being said anyone can learn and design their own speakers with a little help. I would like to see more audiophiles learning speaker design and building their own speakers. And today you can use DSP if you don't want to learn passive crossover design DSP is extremely easy.
As far as saying who I worked for would you put who you work for on the internet for all to see? I would advise against that.
As far as telling you what drivers to check out I am a firm believer in learning everything yourself. When someone would tell me things about drivers or designs, I would not always remember what they taught me but when I researched it myself and found things out myself and learned myself, I never forgot. Remember that old saying if you want something done right you have to do it yourself? That could not be truer no one can do your research better than you. What size driver what type of enclosure only you know what you like and want in a speaker.
What I gather from your post is that you don't do commercial speaker system designs, but rather, are a self-taught DIY person. Thanks for the clarification.
I'd be interested in seeing some measurements of what you consider to be your best full-range driver systems. And, do you build speaker systems that you sell, or, are they just for your own personal use?
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We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
OH NO!!!!! another one that is disrespecting self-taught DIY. The same DIY that actually built the audiophile hobby into what it is.
You know who Les Paul is? He was a high school dropout average student. He was a self-taught luthier and musician with 16 number 1 hits on the billboard top 40 from 1950 to 1954 and he made the world's most famous electric guitar the "Less Paul" There is a picture of les Paul's workshop guess what kind of speaker is hanging on the wall? A Lansing Iconic made by my boy James Martini aka James Lansing another self-taught speaker designer and not only did he design the cabinets and crossovers he designed the actual drivers he was the first speaker manufacturer to use permanent magnets on speakers until then everything was field coil drivers he was also first to use ribbon wire on voice coils and use high-speed voice coil winding techniques. The Lansing Iconic is the most iconic speaker in the world why? First to use permanent magnets and first to use ribbon voice coil wire high speed voice coil winding techniques and the Iconic was also the world's first studio monitor, and this was all in 1939!!!! The iconic also had the best response of any speaker on earth in its day. Not bad for a mechanic that taught himself how to build drivers and horns and then design speakers using the drivers he created and built. And he was 100% self-taught. So, I find it extremely funny that two of the most important people in the world when it comes to music and the production of music, and the reproduction of recorded music were both self-taught do it yourself guys. Les Paul is also responsible for overdubs "laying down two identical guitar tracks in different octaves" and for multitracking. Things that are still used in recording studios today 75 years after the great Les Paul did it first. Just like James Lansing manufacturing technics that are still being used today 95+ years !!!! after James Lansing did it for the first time. And that is only a glimpse into what these two self-taught men accomplished Not bad for a couple of self-taught DIY guys.
So, when you flippantly throw around terms like self-taught & DIY like they are inferior you make yourself look unknowledgeable. Where would you go to school to learn speaker design? I have never heard of speaker design university. Fact is no speaker designer in the history of speaker design went to speaker design school LOL!!!! All speaker designers I repeat all speaker designers in the history of speaker design have been self-taught. I can't believe you had no clue speaker designers were self-taught.
So now let's answer your loaded question. Yes, I am self-taught and proud to be self-taught. As far as where I have worked and what I have accomplished that is my personal business. Why are you trying to make it your business? I will tell you why you're trying to make it your business. You are asking because you feel you have lost a conversion and now you are upset so you're now asking me what you think would be loaded questions to try to disparage my abilities to know understand design and build speakers all of this so you can try to make yourself feel better about your inabilities and that is 100% your fault not mine so do not drag me in to your immature 2nd grade mind games Plus, you do not Santa to see you being naughty. It is so obvious that when people get irritated, they will start to attack and when they attack, they don't think and trap themselves into a corner and end up looking stupid. At that point in time its best for them to just stop so they do not embarrass themselves further.
"OH NO!!!!! another one that is disrespecting self-taught DIY."No need to be defensive. I'm not disrespecting anyone, just confirming how you've described yourself. Heck, for all I know, you might have a Master's degree in physics.
Clearly, you're passionate about the sound reproduction capabilities of "full-range" drivers. I'm a skeptic, but, being an open-minded guy, and always interested in learning, I'm very interested in seeing a few of the performance measurements that you've done of various drivers, and especially of your own completed system designs.
Also, as I asked previously, do you sell any of your speakers, or are they only for your own personal use? I'm sure that other folks here would also like to know more about your speaker designs. (Think of it as free advertising!)
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We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
Edits: 12/17/24
Sorry if you assume I am defensive. And yes, I am passionate about the sound reproduction of all speakers from the 1930's to present including full-range drivers. As far as my measurements, how could they help you know anything other than they have a flat response and what frequency range they have. Measurements as important as they are can't tell you how a speaker sounds. You can have two 2-way speakers both using different 8" drivers with different 1" silk dome tweeters both can play flat from 45 HZ to 20,000 KHZ but one could sound better than the other so how would you know from measurements.
As far as all my measurements go they are all taken with the driver in the cabinet that was designed for it. So, If you want to compare my measurements with the manufactures it wont work because the manufacturer measures drivers in free air not in cabinets. So If you measure a speaker's frequency response in free air then in a ported cabinet then a sealed cabinet you would see the all are slightly different including the impedance. For example a woofer in a sealed cabinet will only have one impedance spike while the same woofer in a ported cabinet will have two impedance spikes.
If I had a Visaton bg-20 8" full-range and I measured it in a 1 cubic ft sealed cabinet, it would have a F3 of 73 HZ put that same driver in a 1.5 cubic ft ported cabinet you now have a F3 of 45 HZ HUGE difference!!!! So, my measurements are taken from different ways the drivers are used in the designs I have used them in so I am having a hard time understanding how this would help you in any way.
And as far as measurements go do you know how measuring drivers work? It is not a picture of a frequency response and a picture of an impedance response. When you measure a driver you are getting a file its called either a FRD file that is for frequency response or a ZMA file that is impedance response you then have to upload these files into simulation software then you will see their response on a graph which is what your thinking of when some one like a designer or manufacturer takes a screenshot of a driver's FRD or ZMA while those files are open in simulation. All my measurements are in the form of FRD & ZMA files not pictures. I have plenty of FRD & ZMA files of various drivers measured in the cabinets they were designed for. If you wanted to see them, you would need to upload them into simulation software to view them and their response will not match the manufacturers who measure in free air.
And would you also like waterfall graphs and polar plots for drivers? These are important if you want to look at drivers decay or dispersion. Do you want to see the filter response and group delay along with current and voltage measurements? How about the impulse and step response.
What measurements are you interested in because all play a factor in the design of a speaker, not just frequency response like people think. Makes no sense to look at speaker measurements and look just at frequency and impedance. That's like buying a car based only on its 0 to 60 times. It makes no sense what if it goes 0 to 60 faster than any car but takes twice as long to stop? Would you still buy it?
You said it yourself you like to learn so If I was you i would start with Vance Dickson loudspeaker cookbook I would also check into buying Clio pocket 3.0 or Dayton Omni Mic & DATS V3
And to stop you from bugging me about my speaker designs & measurements I will design and build a speaker and post the process here in this forum. I have a couple designs in mind. One is a transmission line using small drivers like 8" so maybe a 8" full range with a tweeter. Or I do have some empty cabinets 14" wide 14" deep 26" tall, maybe a 12" with a 8" full-range and a small format compression driver on a small waveguide, a modern version of an electro voice Leyton, a speaker made between 1950 to 1960. Or I could do a 10" woofer in my 14 x 14 x 26 cabinets with a 4" to 6" full-range and a nice dome tweeter. I will sit down after new year's and figure out what design, then I will order the components and start the build. This should be pretty fun. Maybe I could even video the process of how to design the crossover, post videos on you tube and share those videos here in the forum.
Thanks for the reply.
More later.
BTW, I've had Vance Dickason's 4th edition for about 30 years. Good book.
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We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
I don't even know what to say I am at a loss for words.
"to stop you from bugging me about my speaker designs & measurements I will design and build a speaker and post the process here in this forum. I have a couple designs in mind."Not bugging you. Just continuing the conversation. Again, no need to be defensive.
And, there's no need to build a new speaker. You can take that off your to-do list. In an earlier post a month or two ago, you said you're a speaker designer. So, just post something which you've already built and measured. That would be great.
Lastly, I (and maybe other folks) am fine with data files or screen shots. Whichever, or both.
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We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
Edits: 01/02/25
This is twice now you have assumed I am being defensive. When actually it is you who is being defensive. The number one reason for someone to act defensive is their ego was hurt, or they were criticized or corrected and did not like it.
So, after you were corrected which is not my fault you were the one who was wrong you took offense to being corrected. You then started googling me and messaged me and wanted to know who my employer was and what speakers I have designed and built.
You also in the last two of your posts have used a common tactic that people that hide behind screens use in forums and comment sections daily. That is, you mention the other people in the forum when you said other people would like to see builds/measurements think of it as free advertisement. And in your last post when you mentioned other folks. There is absolutely no reason to mention other people when asking me to post measurements.
When you do that, you are trying to make me think that everyone is watching, and you think you have me backed into a corner because I can't design and build speakers. Do you realize how childish and immature that is?
I know you're type you will keep bugging me for measurements trying to prove to yourself that I can't design and build speakers because some way that makes you feel better about being wrong. So, if I do Post measurements what will you say I plagiarized them from another website they're not mine who knows what in the world you could come up with.
I know I told you in a previous post I was going to post a build in this forum start to finish. I have changed my mind I'm not going to post a build start to finish in this forum.
I'm going to post two builds start to finish in this forum. Both builds will use a full range driver. I already have a couple builds in mind. One build will be a 10 in woofer in a sealed cabinet with a 4-inch full range and a dome tweeter.
Since the first build is just a common three-way, I'll do something a little more interesting on the second build. I have a pair of 15-inch drivers been laying around for years so I'm going to do my version of a slot loaded open baffle. The slot loaded open baffle will also use a full range more than likely an 8-inch full range driver what type of Tweeter I don't know I have many compression drivers and wave guides laying around we'll just have to wait and see.
And of course, 100% of the build will post here in the forum. I will sit down this weekend between football and order the drivers. Will try to start posting the build within a week or so.
So, still no pics nor measurements nor whether or not you sell your speakers (if there actually are any, which is seriously in doubt). Just more blather.
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We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
I always like to learn about about new or better designs, of anything. Especially speakers.
'Full range'? I've yet to see 20Hz response. They're doing alright to 40Hz... beamy at high frequencies though and 20KHz isn't even in the realm of a prayer.So 'wide range' is more appropriate; 'full range' implies you can run such a driver full range, which you really can't.
The problem is Doppler Effect. As soon as there's any bass on the driver, Doppler Effect messes with the mids and highs and its really audible as congestion.
This isn't curable unless you get the bass excursion off the driver. And you'll want a tweeter so you don't have to hold your head in a vise to make out the highs.
So such drivers are really a part of a good 3 way system IME/IMO.
There's that whole thing about no crossover making the speaker sound more vivacious. I think there's something to that. The problem is if this is a thing for you, you either have to experiment with electronic crossovers or amps that have bandwith limitation imposed (such as an amp that rolls off below 80Hz or the like).
Edits: 12/10/24
As a speaker designer, I always find it very hard to talk to people that are not designers, but I still try.
You say, you have never seen a 20 HZ response in a full range driver you say they are doing ok down to 40 HZ. I already addressed this if you read my previous post in this thread. You like many other audiophiles that do not design speakers confuse the range of human hearing 20 HZ to 20 KHZ with the range of speaker systems show me a speaker that plays flat down to 20 HZ you can't. There are no speaker systems that have a F3 even close to 20 HZ so how is a speaker going to play flat down to 20 HZ? A matter of fact show me a sub-woofer that plays flat down to 20 HZ you can't !! you then go on to say playing out to 20 KHZ is not even in the realm of a prayer. Well, the designers of full range drivers must have already prayed and had their prayers answered because there are multiple manufactures with multiple full range drivers that play flat out to 20 to 22 KHZ with measurements to prove it along with independent measurements that have been posted online for decades!! The earth is not flat and full range drivers can play past 20 KHZ.
The beaming of full range drivers is as ludicrous as the doppler effect do you know what a polar response is? Can you measure the polar response of some popular full range drivers and show me were the frequency's narrow so much they are considered beaming? News Flash frequency's narrow the higher you go. So, measure some full range and compare them to some tweeters playing the same frequency's and let's see what's beaming lol. Polar response shows you the narrowing frequency with science not hearsay.
You then go on to say the term wide range is more appropriate than full range. This is blatantly disrespectful to the amazing audio pioneers of the past like Paul Voigt. Once again read my previous post in this thread in 1934 when the whizzer cone debuted, they played the same frequency range as the best speaker systems in the world at that time in the western electric systems 60 HZ to 12 KHZ earning the name full range. And as materials and design improved so did the frequency range of all speakers including "full range" drivers.
Then you talk about the doppler effect that was discovered by Christian Doppler in 1842 it is the perceived frequency of sound or light depending on whether it is moving toward or away from the observer/listener. And it certainly does not cause audible congestion. Congestion is a term to describe a cold not a term to describe sound.
So, what is the doppler effect in a speaker? It is the listeners perceived pitch/frequency of sound depending on the movement of the speaker's cone. Higher pitch is heard when the cone is moving towards the listener and lower when the cone is moving away from the listener. it is also worth noting this effect is subtle very very subtle. This is laughable argument against full range drivers at best why? Well let's see because the human voice produces the doppler effect so do musical instruments and microphones and yes, any speaker ever made that has a diaphragm that moves to create sound produces the doppler effect lol.
And last but not least the no crossover thing having no crossover will not make the speaker sound more vivacious because vivacious is not a term that describes sound. It has been said that a speaker with no crossover sounds more cohesive this was also a term made up by audiophiles not speaker designers. In order for something to be cohesive there has to be more than one so a single driver can't be more cohesive lol. People also say no crossover makes for a more dynamic speaker 100% not true. A speakers BL factor will tell you if it will be average or dynamic how? The BL factor is the strength of the magnet and the resistance of the weight of the cone and the strength of the spider and surrounds. So, a higher BL factor the more reactive/dynamic the speaker.
And last but not least you mention electronic crossovers those are fossilized like dinosaur's People today use DSP digital sound processors. And then you totally lost me and anyone that would read the end of your post when you say " amps that have bandwidth limitation imposed (such as an amp that rolls off below 80Hz or the like). There is no such thing as a home audio amplifier having a limited bandwidth that would roll of below 80 HZ. Sorry but this does not exist home audio amplifiers have very large bandwidths that cover much more than 20 HZ to 20 KHZ many amps will cover from just a few HZ say 5 HZ to 100000 KHZ. I think what you meant to say was to have an 80 HZ cutoff for a sub-woofer like on an integrated amp or audio/video receiver.
I am sorry my response is so long, but it is important to stop the spread of false information. It is hurtful to the audiophile community and my industry to spread untruths. out of all hobbies the audiophile hobby has the most misinformation by far. It seems like pseudoscience is respected more than actual science and even scientific test and measurements. This should be unacceptable to everyone, and we should all fact check information before we post it for all to see and spread it like the plague.
There are no speaker systems that have a F3 even close to 20 HZ so how is a speaker going to play flat down to 20 HZ?
The TAD 1602s have F2 at 22Hz. They are in a bass reflex design; a custom set of Classic Audio Loudspeakers model T3 which I own. His T1 model has that bandwidth too using a custom 18" driver.
That's how.
If you don't know about the beaminess thing then I doubt you are for real.
'Vivacious' is of course a term to describe sound used by audiophiles. I just did it yesterday. I am surprised you've not encountered that sort of thing. Hint: saying humans don't use a word to describe something (like a sound) is plainly ridiculous. Perhaps the definition of the word will help:
"attractively lively and animated" Get it?
There is no such thing as a home audio amplifier having a limited bandwidth that would roll of below 80 HZ.
We've built them for customers, so yes, there are.
I'm doing exactly as you think you are; trying to prevent the spread of false information as we see in your post just prior.
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