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Maybe this post should be placed on Shady Lane, but I think it would get more exposure here. It concerns an incident that happened a few years ago with an Audiogon transaction, but I am posting here because they may trash it and not post is as they sometimes do.
I want to say at the outset that I know that what I did was completely stupid. What I am looking for is the opinions of other members concerning the actions of the other person involved, and if you think that what he did was justified and ethical.
I answered an ad for an expensive pair of Zingali speakers.They were nearly new, and selling well below their retail. I went to New York City to hear them at the seller's apartment. At the end of the evening, I had decided that I would buy them. I gave him a cash deposit of $500.00 that evening. Over the next 2 days, I had second thoughts, and decided that I shouldn't buy them. I sent him an email apologizing for my change of heart, and explaining that I didn't expect to get my whole deposit back. What I had in mind was that I should pay for his ad. Someone had offered to do that for me once, when they had decided against buying a piece that I was selling on Audiogon.
He responded with a nasty email stating that of course he wouldn't return the deposit, and he kept it all.
So there it is- what do you think?
Follow Ups:
Why do you give deposits then?
I bought a pair of speakers on Audiogon that the seller wouldn't ship and I couldn't pick them up for a week. So, I paid him a 500.00 deposit via Paypal and told him it would be NON-refundable to show how serious I was. Long story short, I did make the drive to his house a few days later, paid him the rest of the money in cash and brought my speakers home. Of course, the speakers that I just "had to have" only lasted a few months in my living room. I sold them and moved on.
IMHO, if you give a deposit on a piece of gear, you shouldn't expect your money back. How do you know the guy didn't have other offers and couldn't sell it because of your deposit? You made a poor choice, live with it and move on!
Bob
I throw my windows open wide and call to you across the sky.
I saw this Mel Gibson movie. This sexy woman, Tina Turner, tells him, "Break a deal. Face the wheel."
"Play something sad Tonto."
You paid $500 to learn a valuable lesson--break a contact, loose your deposit.
Bob
"He (R.M. Nixon) was a foul caricature of himself, a man with no soul, no inner convictions, with the integrity of a hyena, and the style of a poison toad." H. S. Thompson
Curious as to why this is being brought to life 2 yrs later.To answer your question, you would have been lucky to get any of it back. You weren't lucky. Don't rely on luck. Next time, get it in writing if you want a refundable deposit or some portion of it.
Shoe on other foot: How would you feel if you gave someone a $500 deposit and then came back 2 days later and the seller said he sold it to someone else, here is your 500 back? This is on an item you really want.
Like others have said, what is the point of the deposit in the first place?
Edits: 03/24/10
Hey, I changed my mind about buying a house when I found I couldn't sell mine, gave the guy two months' notice (before the scheduled closing), he sold the house for the asking price, and kept my $25,000 deposit. Doing business with other humans can be a bitch, man.
> > Hey, I changed my mind about buying a house when I found I couldn't sell
> > mine, gave the guy two months' notice (before the scheduled closing), he
> > sold the house for the asking price, and kept my $25,000 deposit.
Around my part of the world it is standard practice to have a contingency clause in a real estate agreement that returns the escrowed deposit if the buyer cannot obtain financing or fails to sell his current house.
A knowledgeable real estate broker or good attorney will make sure such language is in your purchase offer, or warn you of the implications if the seller declines to accept those contingencies.
z
You're right. It doesn't belong here. There was nothing shady based on the set of facts presented.
-Wendell
1. Not asking if he would return the money if you changed your mind?
2. Changing your mind after you gave him the money?
3. Not asking is he would return the money if you changed your mind and then changing your mind?
Think back to the moment when you didn't ask him if he would return the money if you changed your mind? Did you think about asking him?
This problem you have has been described as everything from an ethical dilemma to a larceny.
I don't think it is either. It is due to your failure to explore the consequences of all your possible actions. The burden I think is on you.
I sympathize with you, as I recently bought two very expensive (for me) audio items and, even though i had lots of time to go over angle of my decisions, i still had buyers remorse all the way home and....until i turned them on. Whew!
And what about the time, I shipped an amp back to the US and the company got an empty box with a large whole in it? Now I can only laugh about what the box must have looked like.
Kiss you kids, hug your wife, pat your dug, scratch your cat....eventually even this incident may have a humorous side to it.
Why did you change your mind, anyway?
"What did the Romans ever do for us?"
...I think it is an non-issue but I agree with your statement I want to say at the outset that I know that what I did was completely stupid. ~ No, not stupid, just a $500 error.
It concerns an incident that happened a few years ago ~ WTF are you bothering about it now for?
You paid a deposit for speakers and failed to complete the transaction.
It was you who made the error. It was you who failed to complete the transaction. So of course it is you who pays the penalty.
Why precisely did you give the seller a deposit? Was it just for kicks or was it a down-payment on the purchase of the speakers?
If I were the seller I’d give you all your deposit back. However I don’t believe I would be under any legal or moral obligation to do so.
In my view you made a mistake and paid a small price. Hopefully you will have learnt from your mistake. Though after raising the issue a few years after the event I somehow doubt you have learnt anything about leaving a deposit.
Smile
Sox
This is for sure an ethical issue. But based on the facts; it appears that the seller can be entitled to the deposit. It almost is warranted based on the conditions of the sale agreement; you stated to the seller, "I will take the item", after doing a demo. Had I been a dealer and you made the decision to purchase an item after listening and make a deposit, the assumption on my part is that you would come in later to make final payment and pick up said item. Of course, a dealer would have you fill out paperwork and mention those facts about deposits, canceling orders, etc, etc. The fact that this is a private sale makes this particular e business transaction a grey area matter.
Without written documentation stating a deposit is non-refundable, then perhaps the seller has not much legal right, but, the fact that business is conducted in this mannner by many others and this is business as usual in regards to these types of transactions, it is very possible that any court would side on the seller for keeping the deposit as you showed vested interest in the item and made assertions and a promise to purchase said item to include a deposit. That being said, that is also an ethical issue for both parties, the buyer who backs out of a promised business deal and the seller who is unwilling to give up the deposit. The moral and social responisbility theories of each individual should be taken into account. Not knowing what they are for each party, it is difficult to state who felt morally or ethically slighted in this instance.
In my experience, if someone paid me a deposit for an item after a demo of the equipment, I would look at all of the facts and make consideration where due if the buyer wanted to back out, otherwise, I would have thought about this up front and had documentts available about such situations. This was in business ethics class, that each individual faced with such an ethical dilemma weighs the social and moral responsibility to do the right thing versus what the ethical issue is. That is the dilemma.
I don't think there can be no right or wrong in this instance. Hence, the dilemma.
But, if I paid someone a $500 deposit on an item without telling my wife, and my wife told me later on that I could not have the item, I would really try hard to ask the seller to feel my pain, otherwise, Guido is going to have to pay the guy a visit to recoup such funds, with interest.
Ciao,
Audioquest4life
your money... if you got a receipt I'd have gone to the Police. I got a $500 deposit back on a House I changed my mind about buying the next day. I wouldn't have let it go. If resisted I'd make his existence a living Hell.
... The guy admits what he did was completely stupid and you advocate he exacerbate the situation and persevere in stupid behaviour.
Smile
Sox
Here is what I mighta' done if I was U, or U I...
Wait outside his apt., stalk him until he enter some deserted alley then take a bat to him. Then simply walk away. He got my money, I got some satisfaction. lol
.
Now she's advocating murder...nice.
.
I thhinkyou gave $500 deposite theb change your mind should be never dealth with again,
Was is refundable?
What circumstance from the deposite to thesecond gueesing happened?
To me a good depositer means I'm in!!! lets make this deal
.
From the Canadian Better Business Bureau...
"Deposits
When you place a deposit on an item to have it held for you, a contract is formed between you and the seller. By making a deposit you are assured that the seller will hold the item for you; the seller is assured of a buyer. If you decide not to purchase the item, the seller is under no legal obligation to return the deposit to you. You may forfeit the deposit because the item could have been sold to someone else while you were making up your mind. If a salesperson claims that a deposit is refundable should you change your mind, ask for the claim in writing. Also, always leave as small a deposit as possible"
You welched (ie broke the deal). The seller owes you nothing. Not legally. I would even go so far as to say not morally and not ethically. Seems like a black and white issue to me in that it's clear who wronged whom. I've been on both sides of this. Can't fault the seller in this situation unless there are details you're leaving out.
Leaving aside the somewhat mystifying "a few years ago" aspect of the situation, I have a hard and fast rule: Never buy on the spot. I always walk away and take at least overnight to mull over a decision like that. Also, you were probably concerned that someone else might beat you to the punch, but generally speaking, expensive, esoteric brands like Zingali are not likely to sell too quickly.
Suretyguy, I am well aware of all that as I said, I am looking to know what you think of what the seller did.
My point is that it doesn't really matter what he did (although I probably wouldn't do it myself), it's your apparent impulsiveness that precipitated the problem. We are all at a disadvantage in any event, since we have only one side of this (now old) story.
Unless specified in advance, don't expect a deposit to be returned. The seller was well within his rights but there was no need for his rudeness.
.
What's the point of a deposit if you can change your mind and get it back?
I would have done exactly the same thing.
I think it's about time you started to deal with this.
Congratulations, your first baby steps have been taken!
You had made a mistake in leaving the depost without some sort of additional understanding. You (apparently) gave the person $500 with the intention of returning the next day with the full payment. Whether the other parties actions were moral or immoral, they were legally within thier right to keep your $500. good faith money. Note I wrote "good faith" as the money you gave him WAS to 'seal the deal' and the agreement was broken BY YOU.
I would be sad personally if it happened to me. But you had no rights to the money back, and should just 'get over' it.
Plenty of folks have had people go back on deals and the screwed party get pretty angry over it. (I have gone back on deals (YES YES HANG ME) and have to say the other parties anger is real. The guy you were going to STIFF was probably pretty angry, and probably his anger made him tell you where to go if you wanted the deposit back.
The warning here is don't put out money if you are not certain.
And it certainly should NOT be on 'Shady Lane" as the other person did nothing 'shady'. (As I said, what they did was bad, nasty, mean spirited, but NOT illegal, nor unjustified) What YOU did was just as bad.
And, if you still worry about this YEARS AFTERWARD.. jeez get a life.
(I have never kept any money as a deposit or ingaged in any activities like those here, except I HAVE gone back on deals to my sadness)
Elizabeth,according to you, he should get a humanitarian award for keeping the money. If that is so, then why do you feel the need to add that you have never done it. Go ahead- do it and be proud!
But, gee, maybe I'm wrong. Since everyone thinks that he's such a nice guy, maybe I should mention his name, so you can all congratulate him.
You asked for opinions. Apparently what you wanted was support for your position.
You know Wendell, I suppose that you may be right about that. And if that is what I was looking for, then I deserve what I get. Still, it is kind of sad to hear people state that it is OK to keep someone's money just because you have it already , and you can. I was raised differently. And to go to the extreme like Elizabeth, and say that I "stiffed" him, and he should be angry, well, it's a bit much.
Once you tendered the deposit the money belongs to the seller. It is no longer yours. Is it that you don't want to understand basic contract law? Or just upset you made a mistake?
You got the opinions you asked for ... just not the validation you really wanted. Since I've been on your end of the deal before I know how you feel, but the seller is entitled to keep the earnest money. In my case I view it as mistake made, lesson learned.
A deposit is a commitment to buy. It is no longer your money unless the seller fells to follow through. Put a deposit down on a house and then back out of the deal. Unless you are very fortunate that money is gone and it is, usually, more than $500. Again, he had no cause to be rude. He had every right to keep the money. How would you feel if someone offered him more for the speakers before you came back to get them? You're there, money in hand, but he took the better offer. Even though you would get your deposit back I doubt you would be pleased with the seller. There are two sides to most stories.
... it is meant to be forfeited if the buyer backs out of the deal.
In exchange for receiving the deposit, the seller agrees to not sell the item to anyone else, even if another buyer comes in with a more generous offer.
If a deposit doesn't mean that, then it is meaningless.
If there are meant to be exceptions to these two rules for either side, they need to be put in writing.
Short story? Never put down a deposit unless you really mean to follow through.
It's been 2 years, it's time to start the healing (insert group hug here).
On a personal note if I have someone try and give me a deposit on an item I have for sale I will not take it. I respectfully suggest that they buy it or come back when they have the funds. Sales are on a CASH in hand basis. I learned this the hard way when I had to juggle my schedule to return a deposit from a guy who backed out, what a hassle. Yes he got his money back and I learned the lesson. It only cost ME my time....
Life's A Long Song...
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