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In Reply to: RE: "worth the money" posted by Ivan303 on September 07, 2021 at 15:23:40
The problem with all audio shows is you're not just listening to the amplifiers. The room is an unknown the speakers, cables, sources.
As you may know, I am an Audio Note fan but let's be real - if the AN E speaker doesn't do it for you then it's game over for everything driving the speakers. Room 2 may have a WAVAC on some horn speaker you love or a single driver 100dB and so room 2 may sound better overall - even though the AN amp may utterly trounce the WAVAC - all because of the speakers. I own the AN E and I have heard it sound downright middling boomy, coloured at Audio Shows.
On top of that - they always seemed to sound worse when they ran their old Meishu (300B) amplifier versus the Jinro (211). I think I was right since they have come out with the Meishu Tonmeister to replace the Meishu.
Plus an audio show has limited time to audition - stuff can grow on people over time. I hated Audio Note the first time I heard them. I loved the ATC Parasound combination when I first auditioned them but on several follow up auditions it was unlistenable to me on music I liked - I don't blame Parasound - Bricasti at $15,000 was far worse (probably got class A in Stereophile) - groan.
Indeed, I have done the same - probably misjudged a ton of speakers based on the fact they were being run with high negative feedback class A/B SS amplifiers. So I think back to those "bad speakers" and wonder - "gee what if I put a Jinro/Tomei/Ongaku on that speaker? Probably going to sound a helluva lot better than the Brightson(I mean Bryston).
Follow Ups:
Heard the AN-E in various iterations at the dealer's and at the shows with Meishu, Jinro, Oto SE signature etc. and that speaker NEVER did it for me...sounds like it is seriously holding back some good amps.
I had a guy chasing me around on forums for years telling me the AN E never sounded good to him - then bam he heard them in a Warren Jarret set-up and said it was the best sound he ever heard (aside from his own system of course). I get a lot of such PMs so let's say I have a lot of patience that they're a "grow on me" kind of speaker.The problem in audio is there is rarely a shared experience. If you drive a fully loaded Toyota Camry in London and I drive one in Vancouver and assuming the roads are good then we have a shared experience that is far closer than in audio. So let's say we drove all the cars in the Camry class then we can both evaluate the seats the steering the handling relative to other cars and we probably come to very similar conclusions.
That generally isn't possible in audio. I listen at CES, you listen in Germany - the rooms are different the volume is different, the music is different, the gear is different.
I listed both MBL and YG Acoustics as two of the 5 worst-sounding rooms at CES and then ranked them 1-2 at the California Audio Show - and both rooms used the same electroniocs - MBL uses MBL and YG Acoustics used Ypsilon. Audio Note didn't make my top 15 at the second show and ranked top 5 at the first.
Even at the same show - I auditioned the AN room in 2017 (CAS) and then ran into a reviewer who didn't like it - ok - we went back to the room together - I put on my albums - I played it at my volume (the people running the room left) and he wound up choosing them as a top 3 room. Because when he was there they were playing some snooze fest coma-inducing classical music.
In 2019 (CAS) I sat with a couple of symphony pianists in their 20s (I think they were a couple) and I decided to compare notes - which rooms do you two like best for piano? Their top three rooms were my top three rooms. (Audio Note E, Acapella Audio Arts (with AN front end), SoundChaos with class A PureAudio amplifiers (run by David Cope - former Audio Note show runner who left and now sells other brands).
I don't care what the speaker is - the reason there are so many speaker options is that they don't all appeal to everyone. Steve Hoffman is one of the biggest names in all of the music recordings - he has mastered some of the absolute biggest artists in the music industry for decades (and at the top audiophile labels) - he has attended many shows and heard all the major speakers - he noted recently that the AN E is the best speaker he has heard in 40 years. He is using the speaker at home for pleasure and now in the studio.
But, if those first auditions didn't go well then things would be very different wouldn't they? You never get a second chance to make a first impression? I mean in my case the AN's were so bad I made fun of them on an old Audio-Forum (AR) back in 2000.
I was in the shop mainly for Reference 3a. My favourite boxed speaker maker at the time. In future auditions, the AN K bettered the De Capo. That wasn't the case the first go-round, however.
But hey I continue to listen to all kinds of speakers I have not liked much over the years - I mean Magnepan does zero for me but they're massively popular and have been for decades - but so far not yet for me. I am still waiting for the BAM moment where I have to pick my jaw op off the floor like so many others have felt about them.
Fortunately, I live in an Audiophile hotbed with plenty of chances to audition a huge variety of gear. The problem is that on various forums there is always someone who says I must hear X because X is way better than what I have or anyone has. Right now it's Benchmark - I must hear Benchmark because it measured the best on some AMR site or some such. But last year it was some Cherry Class D and the year before it was Devialet and years before it was nOhr speakers that were all the rage and Scaena and KingSound and on and on it goes. And invariably I listen and am not at all impressed - I just heard those silly Devialet speakers in their system - the speakers look sop cool they sides pump in and out as they sing along to the music - but boy did it sound dreadful to me. If they just sounded decent they would be a great thing to own. A lifestyle product with respectable sound can justify it.
Anyway - too many flavours of the month to keep up with.
Edit: sorry for the long post - I get on the AN E train and lost the point I made in my prior post - the companies like AN who makes the whole train largely lives and dies on the speakers. So if a person goes into the AN room doesn't like the speakers then they won't likely consider the amps or days or cables etc. Other brands can get around that - a person auditions a Soundlab and likes it - well one show it might be Bricasti and other a Benchmark another a Bryston. If you like the way Soundlab presents music then chances are you will have a favourable impression of all three amplifier brands. There aren't too many audio shows where a Meishu Tonmeister is connected to some HE speaker from some other brand. So it doesn't get the benefit of the doubt - because after all it is ALWAYS shown with an AN E and it is never shown with anything else. Whereas a Wavac you may hear with 10 speakers - you might love it on 3 of them but that's enough to be remembered and it gets the credit for the sound - even if it was middling with 7 other speakers.
Memory tends to work with things that are dazzling.
Edits: 09/08/21
And that 101st time the lights will go on and I will "get" the AN-E? Sure...
Look I know the Swiss dealer, heard them setup in his shop with the better electronics offerings from AN and was still unmoved. If it is that hard to make them click then something ain't right...
That's ok they're not for you. They are for a lot of other people. I mean I have auditioned most speaker brands over the last 30+ years too. A lot of the speakers you like I have auditioned and they didn't click either. So it goes.Indeed, I find most discussions on preferences pointless. There is no way to win on a preference - you can tell me all the ways Brussels-Sprouts are a great vegetable and then when I eat one I have a gag reflex where I want to puke it up. Other people love the damn abominations.
Edits: 09/09/21
But you never heard Odeon speakers, right?
When I heard mine I knew that was what I was looking for (at least for what I can afford) and that was like 8 years ago...still have them.
I am adding another pair of Odeons they have a new version of their small horn, Rigoletto, that I heard at the Odeon factory in Northern Germany and it was smokin'.
Do they sell in one of the biggest Audiophile hotbeds in the world? Hong Kong?I have only heard one of their speakers: the La Traviata which was many years ago and wasn't very good. I would not read the Stereophile review.
Generally speaking, we take the recommendations of people we tend to agree with - if I agree with a film critic about films 9/10 times then I will probably be more motivated to seek out films he recommends. If I read another film critic and I agree with him only 2/10 times then I am less motivated to seek it out.
It may be hard for you to be objective but the AN-E, in the audio press, is one of the most well-regarded speakers in the entire history of audio. Even if you don't like the speaker - they have been well-reviewed by almost every publication. And unlike a lot of other speakers, they have stood the test of time selling (and being well reviewed) in one form or another since ~1981.
Just like Magnepan - I can admit that lots of people love Magnepan (or Apogee) including reviewers - but they're not for me, they've never impressed me. Nor does Soundlab or Quad.
Unless they can open a dealer here then I won't be able to audition another one.
If I had a larger room - my current preference is for Acapella Audio Arts. The High Campanile 2 I can afford but I don't have the room for them. And I'd probably have to replace my power amps to accommodate them.
Edits: 09/10/21
The model you mention was a short lived thing 15 years ago and not one of their mainline speakers. I am very familiar with Acapella and have nearly bought one of their speakers a number of times (just auditioned a pair of La Campanellas a couple months ago). They have serious potential BUT Odeons sound more alive and need less power to sing. Two of my friends switched to Odeon after hearing my speakers and a couple more switched after hearing my friend's rather ambitious system that has fully upgraded top model Odeon 38.X (I say X because his are upgraded to the latest Carnegie drivers and crossover).
It's funny you always trot out this one unsatisfying experience to dismiss a really excellent brand of speaker but I am supposed to not judge AN-Es despite more than a dozen blah experiences? A friend of mine bought Es and sold them within 2 months from that same dealer I know. When you have heard dozens of Odeon demos and they are all blah and o you then I will say "gotta keep trying...they will grow on you" like you do about Es. I was hooked on Odeons from the first notes when I first heard them in 2004. A non-Audiophile friend went with me to a show because it also had home theater. He seems as kind of bored until we went into the Odeon/Einstein room. Then he said "Hey that sounds GOOD"! I said "YEAH" and we spent the rest of the afternoon there. When it's right it doesn't need to "grow" on you...
"It's funny you always trot out this one unsatisfying experience to dismiss a really excellent brand of speaker"You asked me if I heard Odeon speakers - this is the speaker I heard. It is a speaker they felt were really good if they were willing to send it to Stereophile.
The reviewer said it was bad. The measurements were bad. I heard it and they were bad.Are they great now? According to you, they are. And maybe they are and maybe I will absolutely love the new ones. I am perfectly willing to audition products multiple times or multiple products. I have had reversed opinions on speakers I hated and then liked later.
Step back - put your anger away for just a minute and put yourself in my shoes. You yourself admit this La Triviata was a bad speaker correct? (If I am correct and you also think it was a bad speaker or a "mistake" then we agree do we not? We both agree that that particular speaker was poor. Yippee Brad and Richard agree!
Now, remember - this is the ONLY speaker Richard has heard from Odeon.
So if you were me and you heard a speaker that stunk - the measurements stunk and Stereophile who also hated it then you would be in my shoes and you would not have much motivation to listen to another one. Be honest - you would not.
Again just for a moment try to put yourself in my shoes here. You seem to be getting angry at me for my experience level with Odeon that somehow being from Vancouver Island and living in Hong Kong where no dealers exist that I should be wholly well-versed in their product line and have auditioned them many times. Be reasonable Brad. There are only 8 dealers in the world - hell there are at least four places that I have been to in Hong Kong alone that sell Audio Note. There may be more as I have not been to them all. On top of that, the dealers will put people in touch with customers who own the products so I can go to their homes and audition them! Ditto back on Vancouver island as customers owned higher-end AN gear than the dealer carried.
What I am saying is I can't audition stuff that isn't available to me to be able to audition. I feel you are angry at me for not being next to one of the 8 dealers?
What do you expect me to do - I have said on this forum several times that speakers I ranked near dead last at one audio show - at the next I attended I ranked them 1 and 2 best. I am always willing to listen to speakers or brands that in the past I did not care for. I always try and listen to Magnepan and Quad and just 3 days ago I auditioned for Reference 3a.
But the stuff has to be here - what can I do?
Edits: 09/11/21
I have not actually heard that particular model. So, I have no comment on it other than you didn't like it. However, my point stands. You get offended when people put down the AN-E after hearing it only once or twice. Don't tell me you don't when you will spill tons of virtual ink defending their honor.
You heard one model, one time and it was a model that didn't stay in the lineup for very long (can hardly find this model in Europe). I am not angry but surprised by your inability to step out of your own shoes and see how you are being a bit hypocritical. You are judging based on one experience and you chide others about AN even when people don't like them after multiple exposures.
I am not angry with you Richard, just disappointed that you are willing to vocalize a judgement based on a single exposure but those of us who have heard a significant amount of AN-E speakers and found them lacking are somehow just needing more exposure??
It is not about old vs. new Odeons. Mine are 20 years old and sound amazing...but not all models from all companies are at the same level (experiment that went wrong) as I am sure you are aware, creative people are often trying new things and they don't always work at the same level.
All I can tell you is that everyone I know who was exposed to or bought AN-Es either did not buy them or sold them after a relatively short time. Everyone I know who bought Odeons has kept them and is in love with them except one guy...but he went to even bigger horns (hoRNs Universum III). ToddA here on this forum luckily found a pair of Odeon La Boheme speakers (my exact model...very rare) and he is in love with them as well. Of course if I had the money I would probably buy Aries Cerat Symphonias (even as a distributor they are too pricey for me) as that is the best horn short of the mega expensive Living Voice Vox Olympians.
I would like to try someday one of ANs 211 based amps, like a Jinro or above. Or maybe a parallel 300B like a Kegon or P4 balanced. Based on the designs they should sound very good. I am not impressed with the DACs so far. I have heard the Oto Signature, and it wasn't bad but an old Ayon 300B amp we had on hand was better...and then came the Aries Cerat Diana integrated and my customer's (who was trying these other amps) jaw hit the floor. On paper the same power as the Ayon (it had 32B tubes for 20 watts) but in practice the Diana might have had 1000 watts (it has 25) such was the difference in dynamics.
Just to note I didn't judge the brand I judged the one speaker I auditioned.I am surprised though that after 30 years they only have 8 dealers total worldwide. It makes it a bit tough to try another one.
The more speakers a company sells the more often there will be "some guy" who sold them to buy something else. I have those stories too.
Jack Roberts on our staff sold the AN E for Teresonic Ingeniums - I auditioned them - they were very nice and a single driver has certain strengths that better the AN E - but it also has drawbacks. In other words Jack decided the Ingenium was better sounding - I did not agree with his assessment so no I would not have traded the AN E in for the Teresonic. Art Dudley traded the AN E for the DeVore 0/96 - again I have heard the DeVore and I would not have done that either. Albeit it is an easier speaker to drive. The Acappela I would trade for but it's moot since the room demands are totally different - Acapella doesn't work in rooms designed for AN E and vice versa.
As an aside - my initial post in this thread was meant to be about system synergy that some people didn't like an 805 amp and some did and I was saying that it could be down to the speaker used. The guy who loved the 805 Wavac loved it because he loved the speakers and the guy who hated it heard it on some other speakers that may not have been his cup of tea.
Edits: 09/14/21
Do you mean stacking an expensive shimmering junk in the small bedroom sized living rooms and claiming the supremacy in the audiophile world of the internet forums? Geez, I met many Asian philes and they are kind of the same. They like shimmering junk with a name behind it and have a means to buy it.
I like Audio Note. Liked it for several years because it uses a simple approach and delivers good results. It's rather expensive for what it is but many brands are way more expensive and do not provide fraction of what AN does. Do I think Audio Note offers a really serious sound? No, I don't.
"Do I think Audio Note offers a really serious sound?"
Given this is a SET board - I'd like to see which SET company goes to the lengths AN goes to - or any amp manufacturer for that matter.
Name me another company that designs and builds its own capacitors, resistors, transformers, volume pots, soldering materials, boards, Valve bases, speaker connections, cabling, etc.
Most companies, because they have to buy the parts, are forced to design around 'whatever' happens to be available from the parts bin at Tranformers-R-Us. And they have to "trust" that the "other" manufacturer did a good job.
Some people value what is inside the box and not what the label on the outside of the box says. AN makes their own valve base because they're serious. And that's why they are desired doesn't he second-hand market because a certain segment values the idea when they buy an Audio Note the majority of parts in the box are made by Audio Note - not a Chinese transformer and valve bases from Cambodia and wiring from South Africa made by some guy in his garage.
Show me which maker makes their own valve base and you can come back to me about who is serious - at 10 minutes. And skip to 31:30 - serious?
There is nothing about AN E speakers that is remotely connected to the subject of this thread.
Give it a rest.
Yes my bad for using my speakers as an example - my first reply and the main point was system synergy.
I have been on forums for over 20 years and it's the same posts over and over - what do you think about this amp or this tube and in virtually 100% of cases the person answering the question has not heard said amp with your speakers, your cables, your source players or in your room. And they may not listen to the same kinds of music you do. A person who listens 95% to big orchestral works and pedal organ has a different requirement than someone who primarily listens to Eva Cassidy or The Eagles.
The 211 sounds more powerful than the 300B - I like the way Hong Kongers describe amplifiers perhaps because English is their second language but the 300B is described here as a Lady amp - which is to be taken as beautiful and pretty and gentle. The 211 is like Indiana Jones. Big and bold with enough gentility that it never becomes brash or overbearing.
But all of that can change depending on the speakers.
I spoke to Steve Hoffman about amplifiers as he has been attending audio shows for 40 years and has mastered the likes of Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Eva Cassidy, Pink Floyd, Linda Rondstadt, Art Pepper, CCR, Bill Evans, Sonny Rollins, Gene Amons, Wes Montgomery, Duke Ellington, Johnny Cash, Nat King Cole, Ray Charles, The Eagles, The Doors, The Beatles, The Beach Boys, Metallica, Van Halen, Sinatra, Steely Dan (Aja), Steppenwolf, (you get the idea).
And his favourite tube is the 211 and he has both the Audio Note Jinro and Ongaku.
Audio Note is crushingly expensive for a 211 amp which is why I opted for the 2a3 Empress. But it doesn;t have the big tone of the 211.
There are monoblocks from Opera Consonance - I tried to get a pair for review but Opera told me they were pulling out of the west and didn't need English language reviews.
I did buy the Line Magnetic 219IA integrated as a kind of poor man's Jinro. That amp along with the Jinro has a softer more valve-like presentation than my Empress.
I mean you already have AVM amps that output 1000 watts into 2 ohms (am I correct?) and so if you want to listen to maximum volume symphony music you have that already. If you want the beautiful smaller music at normal levels then I would opt for the amps that add the pretty and the beautiful. 2a3, 45, 211
A secondhand Line Magnetic 219IA should be fairly reasonable and has 24 watts per channel - it's just really really big and heavy 55kg.
I think it takes more money to do 211 well due to more demanding output transformers and power supplies etc. And while some outfits in China offer lower-priced units most don't really sound as good as you'd hope.
If you look at Chinese units - Cayin is pretty good - they actually make the transformers for Line Magnetic and Prima Luna. I recently auditioned a really superb-sounding anniversary edition 845 integrated from them - it runs $5,000 USD in Hong Kong. Perhaps they have affordable 211s. Ditto a company called Sound Master (Not Mastersound). They still make the only KT88 amp that I liked.
HK is a nice market for classic JBL - Japan is probably better though.
The first sign of a racist is lumping everyone into one box. Maybe check that at the door.So let's take your nonsense point by point. Audiophiles come in all shapes and sizes - the LS-3/5a is hugely popular here because they are small and fit relatively small rooms. They are, as are some other speakers, quite good in small rooms. I live in such an apartment here, while I am here and I have 9-foot ceilings, 13 wide and 17 long - this is not massive but it's fairly close to a typical living room in Canada or the US. Having solid concrete walls, ceilings and floors are superior to a room with wooden walls that sing along with the music. I can choose a larger living space that would yield higher quality sound but I prefer living in the penthouse overlooking the ocean and having access to three clubhouses with three outdoor pools and 2 indoor pools and being a 1-minute walk to the white sandy beach. If I move to a village house I would get more space but no view and no clubhouses. So you make a sacrifice.
There is a limit to the sound that can be generated in small to medium-sized rooms. The ability to generate a realistic dynamic scale that a large horn speaker can offer in a larger room really can't be realized in a small medium-sized room (no matter what system you put it in there). It's a compromise. Albeit most big multiway speakers also have certain weaknesses that tend to bother me. It may impress in a big room at an audio show or a big room at an audio dealer but if it is stuffed into the average room it will probably suck.
As for expense - I bought the Audio Note J/SPe brand new in 2003 for $2500 and I sold it in 2016 for $2917 (+ $417 after 13 years) and that owner could sell it for more than he paid me.
And that was a rush sale as a friend sold it for me - it was also in the worst colour option - black.
I bought my Audio Note OTO Phono SE in 2003 - I can sell it for $400-$500 more than I paid for it.
I sold my Audio Note TT2 turntable in Hong Kong after 3 years of ownership for a couple hundred more than I paid.
So it sure doesn't "seem" too expensive to me. The same day I bought the Audio Note J/SPe - for the exact same price I could have bought the MM De Capo from Reference 3a ($2500). I saw a mint condition set here at a second-hand shop for $900.
So which brand is expensive? $2500 down to $900 is a $1600 loss - or the AN J (a much better sounding speaker which is why the value didn't tank) has a $417 gain. The De Capo and AN J both retailed for $2500 but the DeCapo actually costs you $2017 more a decade down the road - and it doesn't sound as good for the 13 years you owned it.
It's also somewhat reassuring that 10 years later if something breaks the company will be in business and still has replacement parts. That also helps the resale value. Plenty of companies change models 7 years down the line and it's bye-bye your chance to get a tweeter replacement.
There are some factors to consider here beyond sound. Like if I have to buy an amp or speaker from Switzerland from a handful of person operations and they have a proprietary design and 3 years later they go belly up and I paid $40,000 for the thing then what? I have a very expensive product from a tiny outfit using unobtanium parts? And good luck selling it.
Edits: 09/11/21 09/11/21
You can't really make a bad sounding component sound good with other good components, but you can make a good component sound bad with other bad components.
Not quite sure what your comment is trying to say. Somehow a component sounds really good and yet it is actually not? That miracle component would make a great business - 'only buy this one crappy component and it will make your whole system sound great'.
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