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24.26.121.216
In Reply to: RE: More Testing Of Tubes (Mastersound) Vs Transistors (Jungson) posted by Ugly on May 31, 2007 at 13:01:05
U - I suggest you get your hands on an even more powerful SS amp. You may like it even more. I bet you'd even be quite shocked what a cheapo fanless pro amp could offer if you could lower yourself long enough to try a real contender.Whereas in theory, a powerful fanless SS pro amp nowhere near clipping *could* transparently allow you to hear the recording through your loudspeakers, none have a faceplate/chassis as attractive as the one pictured, which suggests marvelously beautiful sound. The visibly ugly chassis of the typical pro amp will cause horrible shrieking noises and sound with enough grain to fill a silo. Clearly audible to anyone but a blind person.
A consummate self assessed hearing expert like John Curl could instantly identify what cheapo junk caps were used by looking...excuse me, listening to those monstrosities.cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
Edits: 05/31/07 05/31/07Follow Ups:
That thing does look bitchen!
Hello Ugly,
Here's a photo of the actual amp I purchased. I'm constantly amazed at how insecure those I refer to as the lunatic fringe amongst the objectivists here are. This group attacks (often without thinking) anything that hints at a preference towards tubes. I admit I prefer tubes but that said, I've stated more than once here: "If/when I find an amp, be it tubed, hybrid or solid state that I believe betters the Mastersound's sound, I will sell the Mastersound and buy that amp!" As a music lover first & foremost I want the best sound I can get, period! I don't care if that component is completely solid state, hybrid or completely tubed. Component looks are only considered after deciding which component sounds the best to me. In other words if 2 components were similar in sound and price, YES I'd pick the one that looks best to me. Unlike the naysayers amongst the lunatic fringe here, I'm always checking to be sure things haven't changed. Up to now the Mastersound is the best I've heard. However I realize things are constantly changing and the individual components inside audio components are always getting better. That's exactly why I decided to buy a fairly powerful new solidstate amp, just to see how much things have improved. I wonder how many of these naysayers check to see if things have improved with tubed or hybrid components?
Still even after I've checked on how these new solid state components sound do the naysayers admit at very least I'm being honest? Do they commend me for at least checking, comparing and testing to see how these new components sound? NO! Instead I'm berated because GOD FORBID this particular solid state integrated isn't ugly enough for them.
I've listened to BGW, Crest, Crown & QSC pro audio amps before. I know they can supply huge amounts of clean undistorted power. Unfortunately IMO it's also a very dull/lifeless, flat, harsh, highly fatiguing sound as well. These pro solid state amps work just fine on woofers, but not as fullrange amps, at least not for me they don't. It's too bad these extremely powerful pro solid state amps cannot allow the music to be heard as recorded. However despite what the L.F.O.'s say none of the reasons for disliking their sound has anything to do with their faceplate/chassis not being as attractive as some of the home amps are. The reality is their arguement hold no water. Some the home solid state amps are as plain as pro solid state amps are. In fact my previous solid state amps 105W/ch B&K ST140, 150W/ch Harmon Kardon Citation 16A, and the 100W/ch OCM 200 also had a flat black panel. All of which were really no different than a typical pro-solid state amps is. I believe the reason for the difference in sound quality between home audio equipment and pro audio equipment is quite simple:
a) Pro solid state amps are manufactured first and foremost with durability in mind. These amps take a lot of physical abuse the typical home amp won't ever see or withstand if it did. A pro solid state manufacturer expects a pro amp will be tossed or dropped. Furthermore they expect an amp that's been dropped or tossed to still work. After that their next consideration is clean abundant power. Things like soundstaging and imaging are NOT even a consideration to their clients. So if placing an specific internal component next to another makes the amp more able to withstand the shock of being dropped, but at the same time makes the soundstage flat with no depth it's not an issue and it's done for the increased durability it provides.
b) Home solid state amps are manufactured first and foremost with sound quality in mind. Things like physical abuse are NOT a consideration. No home audio manufacturer expects a home amp will be tossed or dropped. Furthermore they expect an amp that's been dropped or tossed might not still work. It would in fact most likely void the warranty. Things like soundstaging and imaging are an important consideration to their clients. In this case if placing an specific internal component next to another makes the amp more able to withstand the shock of being dropped, but at the same time makes the soundstage flat with no depth it is an issue and it's NOT done, because the increased durability it provides is not an important issue. In this case it's the collapsed soundstage that's the more important issue.
I would think this would all be crystal clear to anyone with 1/2 a brain. Using a pro solid state amp in a home system is like taking a Hummer and racing it in the Indy 500 or taking a home audio amp and using it in a professional system (like on the road with a rock group) is like taking a Porsche 911 to go 4 wheeling. Neither the hummer or the Porsche will do very well when not being used as intended. Yet both excel in their intended usage.
It a shame that those who use pro solid state amps in home audio system are so insecure with their choices they need to berate every other choice available to music lovers. This group truly amazes me. They claim people like myself who prefer tubes are listening to highly colored equalizers, not amplifiers. They claim people who use solid state amps designed for home use simply prefer them because they look nicer NOT because they sound better and then they claim it's only the visibly ugly chassis of the typical pro amp that causes all others who don't use them to believe the sound is horrible with enough grain to feed a heard of horses! In the mind of these people everyone else is hopelessly lost and confused. Only they know they truth.
Finally for those who care I've been leaving the JungSon powered all the time with the volume set to zero. It seems to be getting less and less harsh and I'm liking it more and more. I'll listen to it exclusively for a couple of weeks and then drop the Mastersound back in. After that I'll give everyone another update.
Thetubeguy1954
Holy crap dude! That thing looks huge and really cool like an instrument you might find in a nuclear plant cooling control room from the '60s or something.
The effort to find the truth is certainly commendable, but don't expect much gratitude from fellow scientists and engineers until you have a bookful of supporting data. Engineering has to be one of the most thankless jobs on the planet, and engineers often eventualy turn out somewhat emotionless, cold and calculating as a result. This is not to say that the pursuit of knowledge isn't a beautiful thing, just that in this day and age it usually takes quite a bit of work to show proof of anything since the easy stuff has already been done, especially amongst the more classicaly trained.
I think you really have to be careful to not make distinctions based on pro vs consumer but rather design topology. A class A design might be more linear at low levels while class AB may have a sweet spot somewhere between minimum and maximum power output. For example my amps seem to be best right before they hit the wall, ie at ear blistering levels. With consumer level solid state stuff you are usually talking less than 100W peak power output ratings and thus the sweet spot will be more likely to land right at normal listening levels.
I think the point you make about pro amps being overdesigned is absolutely true. They have high power capabilities and sturdier chassis. One of these things are OK in the audiophile world one just comes along for the ride. I don't necessarily agree however that pro quality necessarily has to imply worse sound in an apples to apples circuit topology comparison. If the pro amp designer has hi fidelity in mind when designing gear it can be kept as long as the budget allows it. I suspect the worse sounding pro amp devices had tradeoffs forced by bean counters that the designer was well aware of.
This begs the question of why Class A solid state amps wouldn't be more popular amongst audiophiles. I don't really know the answer.
You know once upon a time they had such things. Would you expect the pro audio tube amps to have different abilities in sound stage(ing) than a normal home hi-fi tube amp?
A lot of pro audio guys use Bryston (in the studio) BTW. And some even use tube amps! Most "top notch" studios will have tubes somewhere in the signal chain.
Russ
Russ,
I made too much of a generalization. When I speak about "PRO" solid state amps I'm only speaking about the ones I've heard, i.e. BGW, Crest, Crown & QSC pro audio amps. However all these amps shared what I've come to call "pro solid state sound" This can best be described as being dull/lifeless, flat soundstage, harsh, highly fatiguing sound. I've had considerable experience with the pro stuff because when I first became involved in home audio it what a no-brainer to use some of our band's equipment as my stereo system when not practicing. To this day I remember the day when HAD to replace the Crown IC-150 preamp & D-150A poweramp with a C/M Labs CC-2 preamp & CM-914 poweramp. As a band we had a falling out with the bass player who owned the Crown equipment. So when we kicked him out of the band he took his equipment with him. With one fell swoop we lost our PA's electronics. I remembered seeing the C/M Labs stuff at the local audio store being sold as used. Buying them was my first audio purchase. On our PA it sounded perhaps a little louder, but installed in my home stereo I heard a much greater difference. I heard things on LPs I hadn't heard before plus it just plain sounded better, period.
As far as "PRO" tubed equipment goes I cannot and will not comment on it Russ. I've never heard any of it used in a home stereo and I simply will not comment on components I have not heard. IMHO accurately commenting on audio components I haven't heard is like accurately commenting on what type of lover Halle Berry is from looking at her picture. I realize that once upon a time "PRO" audio equipment was tubed. However whether or not those older tubed "PRO" audio components would have different abilities in their sound or sound staging than a home hi-fi tubed amp would depend of course on how they were constructed. As any component audio designer will tell you, individual component layout can and often does affect the sound. So it's possible they'll sound the same and it's possible they'll sound different. I honestly don not know. Some people say just using different connectors types such as XLR or RCA etc affects the sound and causes a difference. So in the case of the "PRO" audio guys using Bryston in the studio I suppose it would matter if they were the exact same amps as home consumers purchased or not.
I do know this Jerry Garcia was so convinced that audio components affected the sound of his concerts he eventually toured with all McIntosh audio components...
"Even the notoriously picky Grateful Dead used nothing but McIntosh amps in their most ambitious PA systems. Who could argue with those credentials?"
http://stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/804mcintosh/
"the Dead, always determined to stay one step ahead of the State of the Art, resolved to develop a sound system that was up to the daunting task of filling those larger spaces with sound. Sound that was not just loud but clear, to a degree never before attempted. The ultimate result of years of research and experimentation was The Wall of Sound, conceived and built in collaboration with Owsley Stanley, Ron Wickersham, Dan Healy, Bob Matthews and others in the Dead’s circle of technical wizards. The final incarnation of The Wall was a wonder to see, with its towering stacks and hanging clusters of speakers — 641 in all — and racks of amplifiers (McIntosh 2300s, putting out more than 26,000 watts). It was even more of a joy to hear — The Wall was described by many as the biggest and best hi-fi system on earth, bringing the sound of an audiophile’s living room — a very loud living room — to even the most acoustically nightmarish hockey rinks."
http://www.dead.net/almanac/vol9_2/pages/page4.html
Thetubeguy1954
Perhaps my only nitpicking would be the wood and the power/weight ratio.
We all know what kind of fidelity increases real wood knobs make. So why not have the real wood remote control a real wood knob?
Also, I have found power to weight ratio to be a harbinger of audio quality. Yes, I know that is often a motor vehicle term. Have you ever heard a 500w, 30lb amp sound good?
This one is a 200w at 55lb. Not bad. But 35w at 115lbs sounds *much* better. I guess the ultimate would be a 0.5w SET that clocked in at like 500 lbs. Probably sound better than real music.
cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
Heh Heh. All I can say about that is as an embedded system designer I/my company have never been backed into the must use wood to pull off design corner. Not even really sure what outstanding electro/mechanical properties must be attracting designers to wood. Didn't realize it was special at anything in particular.
At least in the old days one could make the argument that heavy was some indication of power supply quality. Obviously with class D that doesn't hold any more. The people I bought my very heavy linears off of were upgrading to digi amps so they are easier to carry, don't remember the model. Makes sense to me if they happen to sound good too. Certainly gaining weight by adding 5 pound meter movements isn't my idea of a good way to get the valuble variety of weight.
"a 0.5w SET that clocked in at like 500 lbs."
Industry scuttlebut has it that Lirpa Laboratories is developing such a product, release date tentatively set for April 1, 2008.
____________________________________________________
"Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.
Yeah it's meant to compete with the new Lirpa Laboratories 100,000W/ch 1oz pro-solid state micro-chip amp!
There is rumor that this chip amp, called the CentKilo, supposedly can run at full output, into 1-ohm loads, powered from a 1 sq. ft. solar panel on an overcast day. Prof I. Lirpa did not release this product as he planned exactly two months ago, because he hadn't been able to attain such output. The problem has delayed its release indefinitely.
To complicate matters, Lirpa also stated the worry that Russian President Putin claimed USA President Bush forced the rekindling of the Cold War, hence materials for solar panels, apparently ordered for building new military reconnaissance satellites, have skyrocketed in price, in his native Russia. "I don't mind capitalism in my great country, but why they always need to engage in war is beyond my mental capability. Government should be spending on amplifiers, not military!"
Prof. Lirpa then thought he may have been able to use a car battery to simulate the solar panel during nighttime, but he realized something could be awry, citing the Second Law of Thermodynamics.....
But it comes with a two ton cooling fan - no extra charge!
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