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In Reply to: RE: "Soundstaging and imaging are, IMHO, two of the most critical pieces of the "live" sound." ?????????????????? posted by Richard BassNut Greene on May 30, 2007 at 14:43:00
Probably mono or near mono in the middle of the auditorium.
Perhaps you might actually attend an orchestra, sit in the middle and see if you believe that your theory holds. My experience mirrors morricab's that it does not. In fact, the last concert I attended two weeks ago provided an interesting lesson in what NOT to do regarding localization. The program was devoted to the works of John Williams and included a large chorus. For some stupid reason, they felt the need for sound reinforcement. During a violin solo with the performer located center stage, one could clearly localize the source of the sound - twenty feet up and five feet away from the side walls !(location of in-wall PA system).
rw
Follow Ups:
I wasn't thinking of classical orchestras which can create a soundstage pretty far back in the auditorium, unlike popular musicians/groups I hear live.
The seats I can afford, in the back of the balcony, assuming I stay awake during classical music, are so far back the sound is near-mono.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
And I will certainly agree with your observation that "live" amplified concerts are simply massive mono mixes (at earbleeding levels, no less). Which is why I don't regularly attend them any more or make sure I bring earplugs when I do! I enjoy being able to actually hear individual characteristics of the instruments - which I find virtually absent in the massive goulash of "reinforced" sound.
I'm convinced that many differences in the way we approach our systems has to do with our musical preferences. I could not relate, for example, with bjh's post regarding high (95 - 97 db) levels. I never do that. My RS meter reports momentary peaks in the high 80s when I power listen. Average levels are always in the 70s range. Indeed, my system can never approach anything resembling a live rock concert. Don't want it to!
rw
I also sit only four feet from my speakers when I'm listening from the sweet spot.
My EPOS ES11 speakers are too small for an average SPL of 85dBA, IMHO, even when using a 24dB/octave 70Hz. high pass filter to keep most of the bass away from them.
The preferred SPL and distance from the speakers are very important factors when choosing components.
Much more important than room size (except for the fact that larger rooms tend to sound better than smaller rooms, and a better sounding room would justify buying more expensive audio equipment).
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
No, I don't want my system to play back at rock concert levels, either! I value my hearing too much for that. I suggested to bjh that he keep his listening levels within safe limits but he didn't respond to that point. My RS meter will very seldom read above the low 80s, which can sound quite loud. A lot of popular material actually sounds quite loud at 75 dBa.
Not long ago, our community orchestra and chorus did Beethoven's 9th Symphony and from the chorus, while there was a sonic image of a sort, it was not possible to localize most of the instrumental sections. I've heard concerts in the same church with the semi-pro orchestra and did not get a localized sound image either--most of the sound seemed to come from above the orchestra. Even in large halls, I have not heard a pinpoint imaging kind of thing.
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"Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.
the best systems I've heard provide all the resolution one could ask for at lower levels than other gear. I'm not into having my body resonate with the music as one finds at some bars and rock concerts. Over at vintage, poster Bold Eagle calls this phenomena "non-loud, non-bright".
As for imaging, my position lies in middle ground. I don't experience "pinpoint" imaging at concerts either. On the other hand, with eyes closed (my usual listening choice), one can clearly locate the lower strings vs. the upper strings, the location of the various brass instruments, etc.
Some percussion, however, like the triangle and bell trees do seem to "float" above the orchestra. Precious few systems in my experience can replicate that sensation to me.
rw
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