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In Reply to: Re: Mr Risch et al- What characterizes a pro interconnect termination? posted by Ethan Winer on May 18, 2007 at 09:07:50
As you can see here.
I'm sure they're just hearing things, though.__________________
Todd,
> I guess David Gilmour and John Mayer should know better <
Actually, musical instrument cables are one of the few places where cable quality does matter. In this case, the sound of a passive guitar pickup is indeed influenced by the capacitance of the wire. But for active devices, which I assume is what the OP was asking about, this is not an issue unless the cable is really poor.
--Ethan
Gilmour apparently also had his Astoria Studio outfitted with Shunyata cabling, as you can see here .
In fact, that page is quite an interesting list of pro audio clients.
Good luck explaining it away.
__________________
> Gilmour apparently also had his Astoria Studio outfitted with Shunyata cabling...
One thing we don't know is the money issue behind installation of that wire. I consider it highly unlikely that any of those places paid list price for their cables. Manufacturers will give product for free or pay for the privilege of being able to advertise that certain influential people or companies use their product. Nike pays big bucks to athletes to wear their gear, Mobil Oil pays to get their name on race cars and so on. I doubt the cable industry is any different other than the size of the dollars involved.
No one has suggested that Shunyata is bad for music, so given that it certainly isn't going to hurt anything, why not accept the offer? Everyone gets a little extra publicity and walks away happy.
Hello, this thread was mailed to me as an FYI.
I would like to address some of your comments.
> > > "One thing we don't know is the money issue behind installation of that wire." < < <
If you are suggesting that there are some--incl. electronics, cables, speaker companies that approach professional studios or recording icons with free products or paid offers in exchange for endorsements, you are likely correct, though I am not directly aware of them.
In our case:
Every recording professional, Studio and mastering engineer you see listed on our web-site, and those that have written endorsements for us, _approached us_, not the other way around --except for Sony Music Studios(New York)-- I called David Smith and Vlado Meller with encouragement from Rick Rubin.
We have _never_ given away our products to anyone in exchange for an endorsement or testimonial, nor was anybody paid a fee for endorsing or referring others to us.
An example:
Astoria Studio manager Phil Taylor read about our products in the UK mag HiFi+ in '03 and called our company about loaning them products for evaluation. After extensive trials and comparisons, Astoria purchased many systems worth of our power and signal products. Did they pay full retail? No.
General/Standard Industry accommodation policy:
Most manufacturer's accommodation policies are similar: If you are a known commercial electronic or speaker manufacturer, recognized recording professional, or a qualified dealer/distributor, you receive a standard industry discount. Most manufacturers charge slightly more than their dealer cost average of 40% to 50% off of retail price. Of course, there are some exceptions-- Shunyata is not one of them.
Those that do offer steep discounts, give-aways and paid-for testimonials are either easy to spot (grossly inflated retail prices ---and low re-sale value), or they soon fail under the weight of their checkered rep.
Almost 100% our listed pro-business came through referral from other recording studios and industry professionals. Astoria Studio alone, referred James Guthrie, SkyWalker Sound, Abbey Road, Sony (Japan) and others to us because of their experiences, not discounts. The same holds true for Rick Rubin and Stephen Epstien, who have both been generous in referring others in the industry. We do the same for companies and products we believe in, it's good for the industry.
We have _never_ actively sought to break into the pro market nor have we ever advertised in pro journals. The industry business came to us. All the professionals who have purchased our products did so only after extensive trial and comparison. Their comments were _not_ bought, but reflect what lead them to purchase the products.
These same principals apply in our choices. We sought out electronics and speaker systems, evaluated them and purchased (or traded) at standard accommodation prices based on our preferences--not by what was free or discounted the most. Our endorsment of the products we use has _nothing_ to do with discounts, because they are generally all the same. We use what we feel performs the best, as do most industry pro's.
The professionals you see on our list never asked for freebies or deep discounts and can afford to pay many times what our products retail for, so offering them discounts or payments as a pre-purchase incentive makes little to no sense from my perspective.
From my experience, the serious music professionals (we have encountered) seek out products through referral, test them extensively, and make a purchase much in the same way that we do-- They buy and use what performs the best (in their system).
I hope this helps answer some of your questions regarding our policies when it comes to pro applications.
Regards,
Grant Samuelsen
Shunyata Research
Thanks for the information. It was interesting to hear straight from the source the discounts you provide professional users and how you generally conduct your business. Not all in this industry are above-board.
I spent some time in the audio industry many years ago so I don't have quite the image of it being populated only by pure-hearted idealistic professionals, but your numbers are pretty much what I remember for the more reputable companies offering a broad group of industry insiders. I know I certainly purchased a few products that I would have never owned if they would have been at regular consumer prices.
That said, it is always educational to "follow the money" even if one ends up with only a partial view. Purchasing decisions are a complex set of variables for businesses as well as individuals so I am always cautious when viewing endorsements of any kind.
> > > "Not all in this industry are above-board." < < <I doubt that there is any capital industry where 'all are above board'. However, in our growing smaller industry, most successful companies place a premium on earning credibility and delivering products that perform well and hold their value. These tenets cannot be achieved (long term) with the use of deep discounts, free promotions and smoke & mirror ad campaigns.
That is why it pays as you say, to be cautious as a consumer. In terms of endorsements in the audio field. I think it's fair to question the veracity of an overt ad campaign that uses a single celebrity to tirelessly promote one brand of product--a certain Jazz pianist's TV ads for cheap speakers come to mind.
When there are 20, 30 or 50 well known industry professionals who speak highly of a product, it is possible that the product they speak of may be worth a closer look. Remember, that unlike TV ads promoting the blind mail-order purchase of plastic speaker systems, High-End Audio promotion is intended only to interest someone in evaluating/comparing a specific product or brand for themselves.
No matter how much a company gives away or spends on promotion, at the end of the day in this age and in _this_ industry, if you make a product with huge markup, cheap parts, old technology and low value, you will not be able to compete with companies that _do_ invest in research, technology and parts quality. The "build cheap sell high" paradigm might work in the short term, but unlike in the '80's-90's, that wont hold up anymore. There are simply too many means of information gathering these days for 'sell you short' companies to hide--for long. I am aware of who some of these high-margin companies are... and I see them failing.
As always, caveat emptor.
Regards,
Grant
To strengthen your point, you could add that exotic cable manufacturers can only use marketing to distinguish their products, the difference between the typical costs of manufacturer and the retail price is large, the technical research and development costs effectively zero, leading to a large proportion of the retail price being available for marketing.
Todd,
> Gilmour apparently also had his Astoria Studio outfitted with Shunyata cabling, as you can see here. <
This is the logical fallacy known as Argument from authority , which is a type of non-sequitur because it does not necessarily follow that those who speak from authority are always correct. Especially in an unrelated field. In this case, just because someone is an excellent musician or record producer doesn't mean they understand the science of audio or are immune from illogical beliefs. It means only that they know how to play their instrument well and/or how to turn the knobs on an EQ and reverb unit to make something sound good.
--Ethan
"This is the logical fallacy known as Argument from authority "
So this means we should discredit your self-proclaimed authority as an "audio pro" and "consumerist".....
a
An example of Appeal to Authority is a mathematician declaring an audiophile cannot hear the difference in cables because science/mathematics doesn't support the audiophile's claim. In the case of Gilmore, he can be presumed to be an authority on sound; one need look no further than any PF album.
geoff: ""
An example of Appeal to Authority is a mathematician declaring an audiophile cannot hear the difference in cables because science/mathematics doesn't support the audiophile's claim.""
No, that is a statement specific of the applicability of existing tenets to a problem.
That is entirely independent of the validity of those tenets with respect to the problem.
Geoff: ""
In the case of Gilmore, he can be presumed to be an authority on sound; one need look no further than any PF album. ""
One can presume anything with respect to his expertise. However, even if one assumes that expertise, that certainly does not make his choice in cables any more or less valid.
Because he chose a specific cable doesn't mean they actually made a difference.
Cheers, John
"Because he chose a specific cable doesn't mean they actually made a difference."
Nor does it mean they did *not* make a difference. We don't know either way. Only the person who owns the product knows, and it's for his satisfaction, not a sign of unequivocal proof or disproof.
There is too much belief that if one perceives a specific condition in his own case, something must be fishy if another person perceives something totally different in that individual case. With so many variables, it's ignorant to blindly imply "right or wrong" with people's perception or findings. So ignorant, that I sometimes cannot believe an engineer who can solve differential equations cannot understand the simple concept that different people and environments yield different perception.
It's as if they take it as an insult against their ability to discern. Why do they get personal and call people who perceive things differently "golden ears?"
Todd: ""
Nor does it mean they did *not* make a difference.""
Yup, we agree on that. I said pretty much that as well, on another post somewhere around here.
Todd: ""
I sometimes cannot believe an engineer who can solve differential equations cannot understand the simple concept that different people and environments yield different perception.""
Math ability is just math ability. Nothin more, nuttin less. Pfft..you should see me with a cheeze grater. :-) Man, those baby's are sharp.. (point being, everybody has their own comfort zone in something, but never all.)
Todd: ""
Why do they get personal and call people who perceive things differently "golden ears?"""
Well, humor for one. Reflexive (knee jerk) reaction another. Frustration also.
Humor is needed here. Too many are way too serious, stirs emotions.
Cheers, John
I know, never give up the ship....:-)
~ Geoff
Ethan made a claim, you diverted..simple.(yah, I paid attention)..
The fact that somebody produces excellent audio product doesn't mean he knows what he's doing w/r to cables..
Doesn't mean the opposite, either.
Cheers, John
Ethan made an incorrect claim. I corrected him. You diverted. You're just being argumentative. I realize here it is only Tuesday..:-)
geoff: ""
Ethan made an incorrect claim.""He did? He called to task the statement that a sound producer of talent was the cat's meow when it comes to the choice of a cable. He questioned the invokation of a gentleman of "authority" (Gilmore) to lend credence to a position.
You diverted from that, and try to claim all of science as "authority". Ethan's remark was with respect to Gilmore. You gotta read slower..:-)
And please stick to substance, not fluff.
geoff: ""
You're just being argumentative.""Moi??? Shirley, you jest...I pointed out your failure to follow, and failure of substance...nuttin more, nuttin less.:-)
geoff: ""
I realize here it is only Tuesday..:-) ""As opposed to somewhere else where it is not Tuesday???
Long time no joust, geoff...How's life treating you?
Finally got an active platform to go under 100 nanometer vibe in an industrial enviro..this active cancellation stuff is neat, albeit weird..
You ever measure your platforms with geophones?
Cheers, John
If your argument is correct maybe we should abolish peer reviews, as the expertise of the peers will be called into question -- Appeal to Authority. Might not be such a bad idea. :-)
Under 100 nanometers? At what freq?
Are geophones anything like ears? :-)
geoff: ""
If your argument is correct maybe we should abolish peer reviews, as the expertise of the peers will be called into question -- Appeal to Authority. Might not be such a bad idea. :-)""If everything you submit is rejected, I could certainly understand your position. Luckily, that has not been my experience.
The beauty of peer review is the ability to discuss with the referees the salient issues. It's never a case of "I don't like it, and I'm an expert...it's outta here", but one of additional resources looking for clear and concise arguments. Having experience on both sides of the peer review process, I have no problems with it. Course, my experience is not with the small potato guys like the AES..Nor do I attempt to submit completely unsubstantiated, unscientific, untestable claims or assertions. The peer review process is good for culling out the garbage.
geoff: ""
Under 100 nanometers? At what freq?""Sigh...didn't I say geophones? I thought you knew this stuff? :-)
geoff: ""
Are geophones anything like ears? :-) ""Yup, just more sensitive. And, waaaay more sensitive than carts on turntables..They pickup vocal induced vibrations on a 15 ton granite table.
And more sensitive than the piezo 'ducers and the laser 'ducers.. Unfortunately, the final app is inside a 4 tesla magnet at 1.8 Kelvin, with the final mass near a kilo-pound..so, geophones (which are a coil/magnet combination), cannot be used in the high field region. (at least there are no difficult aspects to it)...:-(
Cheers, John
You said you got a platform to go under 100 nanometers and I asked what freq. Seems like a straightforward question to me. When you get that contraption to work for audio apps let me know.
~ Geoff
geoff: ""
You said you got a platform to go under 100 nanometers and I asked what freq. Seems like a straightforward question to me. When you get that contraption to work for audio apps let me know.""
Silly rabbit. Google "Geophone". Everything you ask about can be found quite easily..
Styles range, internal resonance anywhere from .2 Hz up to about 12 hz.
Bandwidth ranging from resonance to between 100 hz and 500 hz.
Sensitivities up to about 30 volts/meter/sec.
Am I supposed to do all the work for you??? I thought you made active isolation platforms..what in the world do you use as the active pickup element for the neg feedback???
Cheers, John
I make passive types, including world's only single air spring device, well below 1 Hz, 6 DOF. Active types are for chumps. :-)
geoff: ""
I make passive types, including world's only single air spring device, well below 1 Hz, 6 DOF. Active types are for chumps. :-) ""
Great. Let me know when you make an air spring that works at liquid helium temperatures. I'm not fond of trying to support anything on solid nitrogen or oxygen ice...:-)
How'd you measure your final product? A stopwatch?
Geophones would make short work of your product, especially outgoing QC.
The active "chumps" are significantly more advanced than anything you have..but I will admit they are also hugely more expensive.
Cheers, John
My single air spring platform out-performed (sonically) a Halcyonics $9K active system. It wasn't really that close. So all is not necessarily well in technical land. :-)~ Cheerio
geoff: ""
My single air spring platform out-performed a Halcyonics $9K active system. It wasn't really that close. :-) ""
Good for you. How far down did it suppress vibes? What bandwidth? What measurements? Or was it...just by ear?
Sheesh, the low price stuff..$9K...like I said, the big guys are a heck of a lot more money..geeze, I buy motors that cost that much..luckily, it's not out of my pocket...:-)
Cheers, John
" buy motors that cost that much..luckily, it's not out of my pocket...:-)
"
I guess that is pretty much how it goes when dealing business to business. I decided once to make a SOTA turntable for myself so naturally the first thing I looked into was the motor. Now I said to myself that I need a truly zero cogging, constant torque motor. Then I found some high precision rotational stages with a zero cogging motor as part of the platter itself. Add to that they had magnetic bearings and very flexible speed range. Prices for this platform started at around $15,000 + another $3000 or so for the controller. Then I looked only at a motor of that type, $10,000 + $3000 for the controller. Gulp!
I was recently talking with guy from Australia who makes this ultra expensive Contiuum Caliburn turntable ($90,000 retail...Yikes). He told me that they spend $8000 for the motor alone on that design. A year ago I would have laughed and said there is no way a single electric motor can cost that much. Now I know better. If you want to make a consumer product with real research grade parts it would cost a fortune.
I was also looking into making equipment racks from optical breadboards and research grade elastomeric feet. The specs were very good and it would have made superb vibration control. However; a three shelf rack woud have cost ME over $3000. Now think of trying to make a commercial product? Not too many audiophile takers for a $12,000 rack but in my lab in grad school this would have been purchased without batting an eye (hell we had full blown honeycomb laser tables on air suspension that were nearly $50,000 and lasers for over $500,000 so $12,000 was no big deal).
As I said, Nimbus is a 6DOF sub-Hertz device, cost sub $1K. Resonant f is as low as 0.5 Hz and as high as 2.5 Hz depending on direction of interest. Promethean is mechanical spring device w/ specially fabricated springs, scalable so very high loads can be isolated. Resonant f is below 2 Hz in 4 directions. Promethean can be made to outperform Nimbus with a little attention to detail. :-)
Test of Nimbus vs Halcyonics was by ear of a customer. On paper, Halcyonics should have won. I too have seen some very elaborate, expensive iso systems; fortunately I don't have to compete with them. :-)
~ GK
But no DNA testing. Of course, we know how much more accurate and reliable ear witness testimony is.
Would it have been too much for them to list some basic specs for their cables, without breaching national security?
Hey, at least their prices are reasonable. Might have use for some myself. Thanks for the link.
cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
Can you point to how prevalent the practice is for any other manufactured goods? If common, why don't we hear about their efforts? Expecting something like this seems like a major load of codswallop to me. I'm not opposed to the idea mind you, it just seems terribly unrealistic to expect this to be the norm rather than the exception. I realize the medical field is an exception, but what consumer goods industry is going to take the trouble?
nt
__________________
--
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
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