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In Reply to: RE: Question about 300B OTL posted by Tre' on November 29, 2007 at 10:45:38
Like I said before, maybe you might actually try making the amplifier rather than assuming that everything is working according to the textbook. Getting the 300b to operate in an OTL is actually a bit of a trick. IOW, the 6AS7G is in its element and the 300b isn't. We had to pull some tricks to make the tube work at all. My comments have always been based on this fact.
BTW your original post contains a logical fallacy known as a strawman.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html
Follow Ups:
My original post had to do with you saying "They are both quite linear"
They are not. The 300b is but the 6as7g is not.
How each tube works in a particular circuit is beside the point. You didn't say "in the circlotron circuit" the 6as7 is linear just like the 300b. You instead made a blanket statement that both tubes are quite linear. That is just not true.
The only strawman see is the one you have built.
Have a good day.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Tre, you used *quotes* to make it look as if I had said something. But the quote was something that you made up, although I agree that "They are both quite linear" so its OK- you can quote me on that now and it will be real. The strawman exists in that that statement is simply a statement of fact, and you took it to mean something else, and attacked me on that something else.
Given that this is the OTL forum, and the original question was about an OTL, and it was about one that I had heard as well as others (who have commented about in print), how could any of my succeeding comments be construed to not be about OTLs??
from your post http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/otl/messages/3/31507.html
"RE: 2A3s, 300bs and 6AS7Gs-all sound about the same! The reason we hear differences between these tubes has to do more with the brand/vintage than the type, and also issues related to the output transformers and related parts."
So you see, I made up nothing. I don't "make things up".
You were not, at that moment, talking about OTL's. You were talking about tubes only.
This is an OTL forum but truth is truth.
You know enough to realize that a 300b is more linear than a 6as7g. Just say so and I'll get off you back.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
-until this last post, and if you look that quote says nothing about distortion. It says something else entirely: "-all sound about the same!"
Thus the strawman again.
FWIW I stand by what I said: they *do* all sound *about* the same. I put the emphasis there so you would see the word 'about'. Most of the differences you hear can indeed be traced to variables like components and minor matching issues, but you know that already because you play with this stuff too.
The point here is to work with what is rather than made-up stories. Stick to the quote- not some made up interpretation that is not real.
I will give you "sound" and "about". That would be your opinion.
"The reason we hear differences between these tubes has to do more with the brand/vintage than the type, and also issues related to the output transformers and related parts."
Is this also your opinion or are you trying to state fact?
I will read more carefully in the future if you will be clearer when you are speaking your opinion as opposed to fact.
BTW, nice dancing, you never did answered the question.
Peace, Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Tre, consider that while you point to printed pages, you are dealing with opinion also. What is, is life does not care what stories are created about it, it simply is. Humans exist thinking that the stories that they have about life are real when in fact they are made up. When we try to live our lives as if the stories we make about it are real, we suffer.
It is not possible to really have facts on these forums, because everyone posting has a viewpoint of life that is made up. Its not a good or bad thing, its simply the way it is. The best anyone can do is express themselves in a manner consistent with the best understanding that that they have. My understanding, from my own experience is what I posted. You don't see it that way. It does not make me wrong- I can prove it easily. My saying this does not make you wrong either; you simply see things a different way because you have not had the same experiences I have. That's fine- I've got no problem with it.
I *do* have a problem when you say I am trying to fool someone, when you say that I made comments that I did not, and then some fancy dancing ensues when I call you on it. This is my failure- I took it personally and should have known better. For that I apologize.
Ralph, I do understand what you are saying.
But, in a general sense, if we build with non-linear parts we will get a non-linear amp. (This assumes that there isn't negative feedback. Negative feedback can cover up a lot of non-linearities. Key words "cover up".)
I do not believe that that is an opinion. I believe it can be demonstrated as fact.
We CAN stand on the shoulders of those that came before us. While the plate curves do not show everything, they do show somethings that are facts.
My point is there are some facts in the world. Not everything is subjective.
I still don't see that I mis-quoted you. If I did, I'm sorry for that.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
The funny thing about this is that no-one has been able to build a DH triode amplifier that actually sounds better, although I have heard plenty that that are very musical. None of them so far has expressed lower distortion when running open loop, nor do any of them have any serious bandwidth. These are the sort of things that translate to audible as well as measurable (meaning they are real). By lowering distortion one makes low level detail more available as distortion masks detail. The is one thing OTLs excel at against nearly all comers (certainly SETs and push-pull tube amplifiers) and is one thing that over the years 6AS7G-based OTLs have gained a reputation for.
It may be that on paper DH triodes are more linear, but the performance is locked up where no-one can use it: on the other side of an OPT winding. In a sense that was part of what the 300b OTL was about: to see what possibilities existed.
So what is, is that the linearity of 300bs and 6AS7Gs, real or imagined, is of no consequence.
I accept your apology; you did not mention what question I had not answered.
"The funny thing about this is that no-one has been able to build a DH triode amplifier that actually sounds better"That's your opinion. I don't share it.
"It may be that on paper DH triodes are more linear, but the performance is locked up where no-one can use it: on the other side of an OPT winding.""you did not mention what question I had not answered."
You just did.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
What has it been- ten years since you heard one of our amps?
Even we have made progress in *that* time...
I've been playing with SETs for close to 17 years (when Sound Practices first appeared). As you know the best compromise in SETs are all 2A3s. 45s are useless even on horns (at least the way I listen- the material I listen to has them flat on their face in no time), 300b SETs and larger are are too bandwidth limited, but even 2A3s obviously lack real bass, they lack detail and of course power is a real problem. Like I said, the performance of the 300b/2A3/45 et al is irrelevant and never realized, locked away where you will never hear what the tube is really capable of. I don't regard the tubes themselves as at fault of course, there's just no good way to get them to market so to speak.
> > As you know the best compromise in SETs are all 2A3s < <
> > 300b SETs and larger are are too bandwidth limited, < <
Ralph, with due respect the first statement could be a reasonable opinion, though one I don't share. The second is simply not true.
Rgds,
Naz
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