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RE: Not "operatic"

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RGA

In Reply to: RE: Not "operatic" posted by Bill Way on April 07, 2019 at 07:36:05

Hi Bill - I admit I have not been to an opera in many years so I have a couple of questions
From what I recall there are main parts and secondary and tertiary parts. Not all the singers sing for three solid hours - in the secondary roles someone may intermittently sing for a combined total of 30 minutes. Are these singers NOT opera singers because their secondary careers in secondary parts limited by time?
Looking up Nightwish the term more appropriate or common is "Symphonic Rock" not Opera Rock.
Tarja is said to be a "a professional classical lied singer .../...At eighteen, she moved to Kuopio to study at the Sibelius Academy."(She is a lyric soprano and has a vocal range of three octaves.)
So I guess I am not totally sure the difference between a lied singer and an opera singer.

I am more Marty Crane than Frasier Crane when it comes to Opera I must admit (Largely because I prefer to listen to music in English). I'm not much a fan of musicals on stage or on screen either.
Thus I tend to respect Opera singers more than enjoy opera singers. I'd prefer listening to Eva Cassidy over Mariah Callas or Tarja or Julie London or Renata Tebaldi for example. Even though all of these singers may be viewed as better singers.

Edits: 04/07/19

Follow Ups:

RE: Not "operatic" - Bill Way 21:19:02 04/07/19 (6)
"Are these singers NOT opera singers because their secondary careers in secondary parts limited by time?"

--> Nope. Time on stage has nothing to do with it. And there are, thankfully, few roles that keep any singer on stage and singing for most of the performance. Think about the stresses involved: the singer is filling a 3,000-seat house with sound generated from the larynx, which is about the size of a dime.

"a professional classical lied singer... Sibelius Academy"

--> Lied, or lieder is a genre of art song best known through pieces that set German poems to music. Singers who perform it are opera singers.

--> I'm happy to do a 180 here. I said she was a pop singer because I looked her up on youtube and that was what she was doing. Apparently she can do more.

WW
"I'd crawl over twenty miles of bad country to listen to you pee in a tin cup on the telephone." (Jo Carol Pierce)
- RE: Not "operatic" - RGA 22:54:47 04/07/19 (2)
  I wonder what kind of extra training it requires for a very good singer to make the leap to opera and whether it is a born in quality (the shape of the larynx) or can it be learned?
  
  For example - had Mariah Carey who was said (past tense) to have an elite voice and "operatic" could have been trained to have become an opera singer. Or Charlotte Church or Hayley Westenra?
  
  Nature versus nurture kind of thing.
  - RE: Not "operatic" - Bill Way 06:50:52 04/08/19 (1)
    My my, the leaps are a-leaping!
    
    Singing opera or lieder or other art songs is just a technique that uses the entire torso to produce the sound. Anyone can be taught. Not anyone, once taught, will have a voice you want to hear. I don't know if Mariah Carey, Charlotte Church, or Hayley Westenra (had to look that one up) would sound good as opera singers, and I don't care.
    
    There are so many great opera singers today it's a shame so many go through their entire lives avoiding opera houses. Family Circle seats at the Met are mostly $30 and the sound is terrific up there. (Bring binoculars.)
    
    The unamplified human voice is the greatest instrument ever. Go hear it at its best.
    
    WW
    "I'd crawl over twenty miles of bad country to listen to you pee in a tin cup on the telephone." (Jo Carol Pierce)
    - RE: Not "operatic" - RGA 19:18:49 04/08/19 (0)
      The $30 ticket isn't the problem - it's the $2000 air and hotel costs to get to the Met that is the problem :)
      Although I suppose I could venture out and see Don Giovani coming to Hong Kong.
      Living in New York definitely has advantages. The double edged sword - if I taught in New York my crappy teacher pay would not let me afford to see plays. Living in Hong Kong I can afford to see them but they don't come around very often.
      
      Edits: 04/08/19
- "Singers who perform it [the Lied repertoire] are opera singers" - Chris from Lafayette 22:02:58 04/07/19 (2)
  That's often true, but not always. Lied singers can often be quite successful with relatively small voices. And sometimes, a singer of Lieder tries to make a leap to operatic singing, and it ends in disaster. I think of the famous Conrad L. Osborne review of Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (known for his singing of Lieder) attempting to sing one of the heavy Wagnerian roles. He just didn't have sufficient voice for it, and, as Osborne reported, attempted to compensate "by blowing additional tone out of his ears" (!) with unfortunate results. ;-)
  - RE: "Singers who perform it [the Lied repertoire] are opera singers" - Bill Way 06:34:02 04/08/19 (1)
    Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau was one of the great operatic baritones. There is no "leap" from lieder to opera. It's more likely he had the wrong voice for it, rather than insufficient voice.
    
    There *are* opera roles that are better suited to some singers and not others. Wiki for once gets it right: "He dominated both the opera and concert platform for over thirty years." The notion that he failed to make an imagined "leap" from lieder to opera is fantasy.
    
    When a singer takes on a role ill-suited to his/her voice, the end will not be a happy one.
    
    WW
    "I'd crawl over twenty miles of bad country to listen to you pee in a tin cup on the telephone." (Jo Carol Pierce)
    - He had a small voice which was not suited to the Wagnerian roles - Chris from Lafayette 18:43:10 04/08/19 (0)
      Sure, he could have restricted himself to Mozart roles and the like. But, in fact, Wikipedia has it wrong: there's no way he "dominated" opera in the sense of breadth of roles. To contend otherwise is just silly. And, yes, his voice was insufficient for certain roles, as Osborne correctly observed. And no amount of engineering balancing and tricks could fool a knowledgeable listener into thinking his voice was of sufficient weight for some of the operatic roles he presumed to sing.
      
      Elly Ameling was another singer who wisely stuck to Lieder, except for some of the lighter Mozart operatic roles. (Wonderful lady BTW - I participated in one of her master classes.)

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