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148.77.3.2
I sent my pair of GPA Altec 416-8B to Troy Crowe for testing.
https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/altec-416-8b-in-100l-sealed
As you can see, due to the sealed box size at around 70Hz they probably won't play at much above 80db, if that much, at 11 feet away.
I thought of using a pair of these subs. https://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12SE.html
But until Troy Crowe builds the rest of the system-probably using this horn https://josephcrowe.com/products/3d-cad-files-horn-no-1994-es450-biradial-for-jbl-2446-2-throat -I will have no idea how well the Altec midwoofers and the Rythmik subs will sound together.
Would it be a mistake pairing the Altecs with these Rythmik subs?
Follow Ups:
Smallest suitable ported box would be Altec 612 cab. size, guessing 5 cu. ft.. You will need no sub unless you want 20 Hz. or so.
hello
if i may,
let me look at this from another angle.....
the 416 is one of the best 15" woofers i have heard - -arguably the most versatile ever made (in my house -- compared directly to many other well-regarded woofers it occupied the top tier along with the 515x woofers). its strength -- perhaps unequalled --- is that it can go very low (20s) and very high (1800+). as if that was not enough, it is musically lithe and sublime..... so why add a sub? when you can simply make a bigger a cab (9-16 cubic feet) and make it go to 30-ish .. .and if you really want (or need) low bass, why not add a big single or double woofer-416 box and bring it in at say 35 (check out troy audio hellina on youtube). then you could keep the tone on same page . note that adding a sub to any woofer is not easy- a builder as skilled as alan shaw (harbeth) said he was not confident he could do it properly. additionally, low bass is very room independent and a sub can do a lot of damage. also, the presentation of an altec woofer is VERY different from a modern sub woofer... blending is not going to be an easy task.
if you need to have a 'small' box...i suggest staying far, far away from altec 416 woofer. my 2cent based on my crumbling ears.
rgds
m
p
The T&S parameters are your guide modeling what can be done with that driver.
IF your adding a subwoofer, the sealed lf alignment for the upper part has half the phase shift of a vented box and is easier to crossover into, without a subwoofer the vented alignment gives you more low end.
Are you building these?
https://ia804606.us.archive.org/27/items/manualzz-id-3002033/3002033_text.pdf
Here's the youtube version of Troy Crowe's review.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bo-g5-EFuQ&t=303s
No, I don't want to build anything. I was asking if these Altec 416 woofers in those albeit too small 3 cu ft sealed cabinets can be satisfactorily used as is with a pair of these Rythmik F12 sealed subs.
https://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12.html
https://www.rythmikaudio.com/technology.html
Where should the Altec 416s and these subs be crossed for best tonality from the Altecs at 11 ft?
Well, it will make sound but it is a low mass driver and best used in a large cabinet so in a 3 cu/ft sealed box, the -3dB low end would be around 175-200Hz. A vented box that small is less suitable for that driver.
Can you use a different driver to get down to the sub (like down to say 80Hz)?
Thanks tomservo and Paul Joppa for chiming in. No, I can't use another driver. My DIY skills are very limited and with my day job and other commitments no time to improve upon them. Back in 2015, the cabinets were designed by DIYaudio.com member Gary Dahl for his two-way system plus
subs. Gary gave me the sketches and two dozen photos for Jim Salk to clone them. I ordered the 416s from GPA and had them shipped to Jim. Back then they sold for 1/4 of what they do now. https://greatplainsacoustics.com/products/416-8b-alnico-16-in-low-frecuency-loudspeaker-each?srsltid=AfmBOooJNHFXcc30wFxcfNjHrTE-0Fi4hG0JufbYqJIHDmDRHDuEgzsGScroll down and see specs and T/S parameters.
AFAIK, Gary uses vintage Yamaha JA6681B drivers in JMLC AH425 horns atop the Altecs. See his last posts on this page. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/beyond-the-ariel.100392/page-761#post-7412544
Gary seems elated by the sound of the Yamahas; lets hope he doesn't lose a diaphragm as there are no replacements to be found anywhere. And he has long been equally pleased by the Altecs, which, so as to minimize IM distortion, he deliberately designed those small sealed boxes to limit usable response down to 70Hz. However, Gary never specified what SPLs vs. distortion he gets at that frequency, vs. the 73db distortion from the ~ 95db test at 100Hz Troy Crowe measured. But checking the last three plots here attests to this driver's very low distortion numbers.
https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/altec-416-8b-in-100l-sealedOne of Gary's very last posts said that he only uses the subs for home theater. For music, he claims to get ample bass response from room gain due to fortuitous speaker placement. I doubt if I will get that lucky in my room, hence my questions about using the Rythmik subs. I don't know quite how to interpret the 416's T/S numbers to go about proving this, but Tom Brennan at audiokarma.com member said that "I don't know but whatever subs you get should be able to track the dynamics of the 416s, no easy task." That got me wondering if Gary's subs ((16" Acoustic Elegance drivers + passive radiators) were too slow for the Altecs. If so, from what I've read of the Rythmik subs there will be no such issues.
Therefore, my main concern is if there will be any big tonality differences between the 416s and these subs if I'd have to cross at around 80Hz. I suppose the only way I could cross lower would be if I was satisfied with SPLs from the Altecs at ~ 70Hz in my 2660 cu ft room, however likely that would be. Equal-loudness contour - Wikipedia
Edits: 09/29/24
It's a light cone, but a very floppy suspension.
FS = 24
QE = 0.24
Vas = 22.9 ft^3
Unless I'm missing something, I get 70.5Hz for f0 in a 3 ft^3 box, at QE=0.705; very close to Butterworth. (I'm ignoring QM which is pretty large). If I'm right, it would be a pretty good match for the Rythmik F12.
It's low mass for sure, I got a 0dB point at 160Hz and -3 at 74Hz in 3cu/ft. The 2.5mH L gives the response a built in low pass crossover. Parameters "as if made for a large low compression bass horn" haha
But with twice the box volume and tuned to 40Hz a vented system could give a -3 at 40Hz, with 3 times the volume, you get a small bump and -3 at 36Hz.
The right bass horn is where that one would be happy.
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