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In Reply to: RE: Which Supravox field coil full range? posted by Tube747 on January 11, 2024 at 03:15:32
no 'full range driver' is actually full range.
For best results you'll want a woofer so as to minimize Doppler effect distortion on the main driver, and a tweeter to minimize beaminess and the need for your head to be in a vise to stay in the sweet spot. Doppler effect cause the driver to sound congested when you turn it up. If you get the excursion off of the main driver it gets a lot more coherent.
If you don't like the tweeter idea, consider at least that a rear-firing tweeter can be helpful to correct the tonal balance when you're off axis. But if you have a tweeter, its a good idea to roll off the main driver otherwise you can get combing effects which are not pleasant.
Whizzer cones tend to have breakups, so can be tricky- they help with highs but also can be harsher.
I get the whole thing about not needing a crossover and the like. I have a friend in town who has been struggling with the issue for 20 years and hasn't got it to work yet. He's spent $10,000s on it and still no satisfaction.
Follow Ups:
Dear Ralph,
I have considered the Phy-HP Open Baffle with twin TW37 and has Supravox or EMS 15" fold coil woofer for the bass in an Onken enclosure.
BTW, which Supravox field coil can do the same job as Phy-HP 12" full range on open baffle
A driver suitable for OB will usually have a tight suspension. I like the looks of the Supravox stuff a lot; the PHY is nice though- we've had the 12", 8" and 6" units. I like the 6" because it makes more sense to run a woofer with it, and otherwise its built to be very light and fast and does much better at the highs than you might expect, even if a whizzer were involved.
I'm serious about this woofer thing. Don't be thinking you'll somehow get away without a crossover to limit the excursion on the main driver; otherwise you'll be in for a struggle that never ends.
At low levels they can sound quite good but you turn things up and it falls apart.
Dear Ralph,
I think one 12" Phy-HP full range drive unit with twin TW37 would overcome the high frequency extension issue. What do you think?
> > At low levels they can sound quite good but you turn things up and it falls apart < <
Are you talking about the Phy-HP Open Baffle or Supravox field coil 15" in an Onken box?
I have listened to the Phy-HP Open Baffle system two decades ago but it has
coaxial drive unit on it. I can feel the bottom limited around 40Hz.
I think an low pass filter for the 15" field coil Onken bass system is necessary.
The attached diagram is for EMS (Ferin) B15EX drive unit
You can certainly try it, but consider that the main driver isn't being rolled off so it will make energy in the same range as the tweeter. That will cause comb filtering effects, which the ear interprets as harshness.
If you plan to use a woofer, consider crossing over at 500Hz. The main driver can handle that with ease and you'll be able to run higher power levels without distortion. Any woofer can go to 500Hz with good speed.
If the main drive isn't crossed over, you'll get Doppler effect distortion which is heard in the midrange. It might sound OK at lower levels but the speaker won't be able to handle complex material like a full orchestra with significant sound pressure, unless you are in a small room or nearfield.
yeh! This is true.
Two approaches for the Phy-HP Open Baffle
First, it can be driven by low power tube amp such as 2A3 or 45 type in a small room. I read a review of this speaker from Dutch diner named DHTRob, looks like he has this speaker in a small room with low power.
The second approach as you pointed out crossover at higher frequency at 500Hz that allows the Phy-HP driver do less job. However, I concerned about whether the Onken bass with EMS able to like such higher frequency. Assuming it is able to blend well, passive crossover would ruins the transparency to a degree. So the route to bi-amping is a must via digital crossover, eg DSPeaker, miniDSP and others.
So I prefer the first Pproach to have the Phy-HP OB in a small room for simplicity and puritry.
If I have a large room or listening area, i might have another set up for large room that has Supravox field coil in an Onken enclosure for upper frequency snd Onken bass with EMS as the diagram shown in my previous post. I guess such a set might play much much louder without too much compromise.
Hi,
I have Tonian TL M1 Mk. 2's in semi-open baffles with custom ribbon tweeters (built on Fountek frames), and they sound superb. I don't think that I could ever find better speakers. They work with a few watts, but sound best with moderate power--currently the latest LTA ZOTL 40's. They can play everything from solo lute to vocals to free jazz to heavy metal. Benefit also from a supplementary subwoofer. At first, I did not like the idea of more resonant baffles but they work well, and the music sounds like it is coming from the air. I previously had KM30 SAG's for many years. Before getting the new cabinets, I first switched to Tonian tweeters, which are clearly better than the Phy's--smoother more extended and seamless in transition. I think the 12-inch drivers are run very wide-range. FWIW.
David
I find that electronic crossovers often have more coloration than passive ones, assuming both are properly designed.
Passive crossovers might seem to rob the speaker of a certain immediacy at lower volumes, but at higher volumes (and not that much higher) they allow the speaker to be smoother and more transparent.
No worries at all that the Onken bass can go that high. It can go much higher. 500Hz is an easy crossover point that allows the coloration of caps in the crossover to be minimal while also keeping all the drivers well within comfortable limits. One thing that arises out of this is that since the bass unit is going that high, there's no need for a larger main driver and the addending slower speed that the larger cones tend to have. So you could run a 6" unit and have a faster more involving midrange.
I won't dispute your claims about passive vs electronic crossovers. I will add the following to the discussion though.
Electronic crossovers allow you to change the relative output of different drivers depending on how the music was mastered or recorded on the particular playback medium. Each musical piece is recorded differently, although most are within some reasonable margin. But an appreciable number of recordings require some significant adjustments, particularly in deep bass.
I would say that at the very least, allow for controlling the output of the subwoofer separate from other speaker drivers. But I can separately control the midbass, low midrange (60 to 500 hz) separate from the subwoofer and high frequencies and this is useful. The high frequencies of my system (> 500 hz0 are passively cross-overed.
I use the Sublime Acoustics crossover, which seems transparent.
Retsel
What do you consider a large room?
My old listening space was 17' by 21' and most 'full range' single-driver loudspeakers would fall flat on their face trying to fill it at a a decent level.
The reason to go with a 'full range driver' is efficiency.
Thanks Ralph. I use the 8" PHY-HP with the super tweeter and a REL sub in a 13 x 21 room. Acoustic jazz at moderate volumes. It has served me well but I will try a Cornwall IV at some point.
Hmm ...Then I will use the Phy-HP in a small room.
I think Ciuffoli high efficiency design pretty much follow your trend
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