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Picked these up locally to try out, as I've been curious about the open speaker designs. And I figured there is no way such a speaker can sound any good, regardless of their niche popularity.
I think the seller told me the wood is Birch. The speakers are the Lii Song F15s. Right now, they're being driven by an Inspire SET pushing 5 watts, I think.
I picked these up two days ago. When I brought them home, I just put them to the outside of my speakers in at that moment (Blumenstein Naga with their matching sub) to make sure they worked, since the purchase was just a drive-by.
With the speakers about 10 feet apart, toed in, with my chair only about 7 feet back I was shocked the soundstage was smack between the speakers. And the way they presented music sounded really different. A bit bright and light, but pretty cool at the same time.
I swapped the speakers out today since I needed to put a coat of Danish oil on the Nagas anyway. And since they have to cure for a day, I figured I'd put the Lii in.
The speakers sounded bright and beaming in the high frequencies, and the lower frequencies were subdued in the mix. With the threaded feet, the speakers were aimed at my face. I took them out and put them on a homemade pedestal of sorts. It has larger Isoacoustc footers under the board and the smaller ones under the feet of the speakers. This raised the speakers up a few inches and now the tilt-back is very minimal.
The beaminess is now gone and the speakers sound rather full and balanced. The soundstage height is similar to that of other speakers I've had in the room even though the speakers are way below my ear level. Even considering the tilt, I think they're still below my ears.
Not too sure how to describe the difference, but it seems like these present a larger soundstage between the speakers. More holographic, perhaps.
I've only had them is a few hours, but am liking them quite a bit.
"Man, that mouse is Awesome." - Kaemon (referring to Jerry, of Tom and Jerry fame)
Follow Ups:
Welcome to the glorious world of OBs. In my 4 decades+ journey I owned Accoustat 2 +2s that I powered with both their OTL tubes and the interface boxes to try various amplifiers. My next OBs were Manepan 3.5Rs. I tried everything except bypassing the internal fuse boxes and DSP. For the last 2 years and counting I have been enthralled with Emerald Physics 3.4s 12" paper woofers with 1" POLYESTER TWEETERS and active XOs. The driver is ~ half way above the baffle. I have very little music that goes so deep/low that I feel any need for subsThe tubes on either side are Agent RoomLenses, no longer made> i have moved them since taking the picture
Edits: 07/19/23
Thanks for sharing your inspiration.
My humble guess is that you need a bigger baffle.
Perhaps try some cardboard wings, and see how they measure?
Below is a link to some of your fellow Lii travelers:
Thank you.
What does the wider baffle do?
"Man, that mouse is Awesome." - Kaemon (referring to Jerry, of Tom and Jerry fame)
Larger baffle boosts bass.
Look at mhardy's chart in his post below.
Thank you.
"Man, that mouse is Awesome." - Kaemon (referring to Jerry, of Tom and Jerry fame)
... and, of course, a driver with a high Qts (> 1) is generally considered a better choice for OB alignments. I know there are published "factory" specs for the Lii drivers, but 1) I don't recall them and 2) I have no idea if they're accurate.
By all means, consider the 'famous' and very versatile ;) OB design (re)popularized years ago by Joseph Esmilla (see link below).
I guess the other question for the OP, "AudioDwebe", would be what other large twincone "full range" drivers have you heard? e.g., EV LS-12 or LS-15? Altec "Biflex"? Have you listened extensively to good coaxials (e.g., Altec 604 or 605 Duplex, Tannoy coaxes)? You may just be looking for a different sound than the Lii provides.
"Full range" is very much a fringe niche.
OB is very much a fringe niche.
i.e., one is in the rarefied territory of (fringe)^2 (niche)^2. ;)
I have played around with both extensively, but moved on after about 15 years of experimentation. YMMV, though, of course!
all the best,
mrh
For some reason the EV Wolverine 12" wide range driver makes a robust sounding bass in a rather small open baffle. A guy in our old Chicago horn club put them in clear acrylic baffles about, oh, 4' high and 2' wide. They sounded very balanced.
Which does suit an open baffle well. I think that's why the LS12 sounds pretty good on an open baffle.
Or even no baffle at all ;) as depicted in the photo I posted.
My first audition ever of Altec Duplexes (a pair of eBAY-fresh 604C that Gary Kaufman had acquired, many years ago) was "unbaffled". Ella Fitzgerald through them (with their stock Altec XOs) made me an instant fan of the Duplexes. I was already a fan of Ella. :)
...and, oh yes, I know -- any 604 family member does not represent a high Qts woofer.
all the best,
mrh
Well, I'm very keen on the 604Es I recently got, they have excellent clarity do you the human voice in typical glorious Altec fashion. Big Tone.
I built open baffle speakers for my brother about, oh, 45 years ago after a design from a DIY book by Gary Weems. I put several Lafayette Radio 6x9s in vertical arrays on 3/4" plywood baffles about 2' wide and 6' high and added Motorola piezos for better highs. They sounded pretty good.
Then there was my 8" Supravox on
4 x 3' acrylic, slightly offset according to
the golden ratio, painstakingly cut out by
Kurt. Below 60 Hz plate amp driven
21" Madisons carried the load. As I recall, the
acrylic was an attempt at domesticating
the look. Sounded good on less complex
material, but for Bruckner and Mahler, no.
Isn't the time to just watch the boats go by ?
No need to call me grandpa, nor Methusela. I can whup you to a frazzle. Now what's so mighty fishy about this trail?
Hey, thanks.
I didn't read through your post very carefully upon initial read. Sorry.
So according to the chart, is 8t saying a baffle needs to be 130" in length in order to produce the lowest notes on a piano? And by "length" is it referring to the height of the baffle?
I've got a few single driver speakers but none are boxless.
"Man, that mouse is Awesome." - Kaemon (referring to Jerry, of Tom and Jerry fame)
Yea, and that is why you don't try to target 35 hz with open baffle speakers. Instead target something like 60 hz, which only requires ~50 inches. And then if you add wings which are directed backwards, then the front baffle is maybe only a few feet wide, but then with the added badkward wings which would only need to be a couple feet deep, you can get to 60 hz. Then below your 60 hz open baffle speakers, you have your subwoofers, which are designed to avoid room nodes by strategic placement in the room.
There are tricks that you can play to "cheat the system." If the midrange/midbass drivers have high Q (i.e, 1), you can get a "bump" in the bass, and if you get lucky, will give you deeper bass from the midrange/midbass drivers, and end up with a fairly flat frequency response - if you are lucky...
One word of caution, wings which are directed backwards and parallel to each other can create box resonances which can muck up the midrange/midbass, so then you have to play with absorption and/or splaying the rear baffle wings outward at an angle to reduce those resonances.
If you are tempted to try open baffle subwoofers, my suggestion is to not, but if you want to go down crazyland, more power to you.
If you want to use open baffle speakers to avoid room interaction, yes it will help some, but waveguides/horns are much more effective for doing so, and lower distortion due to the efficiency gain, at least that is where I ended up - waveguides/horns have their own challenges though.
Retsel
The front and rear waves from the driver cancel each other below the frequency where the front and rear of the cone are separated by less than one-half wavelength. One-half wavelength at 40Hz is 14 feet.
Bill is the one voice of reason. As far as most of the others--> For the life of me, I do not understand this constant denial of physics when it comes to plane board speakers instead of proper enclosures. **Not that all users are in denial, but most are**
Also, there exists this mis-understanding of Qts. If you think a "Q" of one gives you a *bump* in the response, I urge you to study the an-echoic response of the Eminence Alpha 15. Please tell me where you see the bump (?)
I've been at this for many many years, and YES I understand the evils of the boxy sound. There are ways to minimize the box without resorting to the plane board. Too much loss/cancellation in the bass region for my taste.
Now, open baffle for mid range can sometimes work out pretty good, but, again -- this is a matter of taste. All that negative energy splashing about the wall behind the speakers can add the illusion of spaciousness, but it's not accurate. Again, this is a matter of taste, and if the final sound quality is pretty good to the end user, than indeed it is pretty good. You don't need 100% accurate to enjoy the music.
Peace.
Fringe for sure. OB appeals to counter-culture types, as in 'Boxes? Boxes??? We don't need no stinking boxes!' But if you're going to go low and loud you do need boxes. Even better, horns.
Along with single driver types, all are niche in home audio.
Doesn't mean that they are either inferior or superior, just not as many takers as mid to low efficiency speakers.
And open baffle bass and sub woofers have many Mark's that are able to do bass very well simply with large xmax and transfer functions on signal.
Well measured, well understood and several outstanding Mark's or home audio available.
None for sound reinforcement or pro audio I know of though
Maybe a H-frame?
No matter the shape any baffle that allows the front and rear waves to meet (without one or the other first having a 180 degree phase shift, for instance with bass reflex) will give the same result.
enn tee
all the best,
mrh
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