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In Reply to: RE: "Polite" speakers posted by PeterKK on September 21, 2022 at 11:08:38
Transient response (impulse) seems to be the key.If we separate the "air pushers" vs. the "air Squeezers," we have something beyond "politeness" to describe sound. The following principle will illustrate my point with easy numbers (not real ones, which would be close).
Fundamentally, if we use start with a 10" woofer in a sealed box use 1 watt to produce, 100 Hz. at 90 db. Sound Pressure Level, 1 meter away, there's a certain amount of cone motion required for it to play that loud. Now if we make a simple conical horn, 1 meter long, with a 10" throat and a 1 meter diameter mouth, the output will go up by some amount. Let's say it's 10 db louder at 100 Hz. So the power required from the amplifier is reduced to 0.1 Watts to get that same 90 db SPL. Since we are using the exact same driver, with the same Motor structure, the cone movement would be 1/10th the distance that it would be when operated without horn loading. So the NET effect would be a much better TRANSIENT response, since the cone only needs to move 1/10th as far for the same output, it actually does get there FASTER, all other things being equal (they are not but humor me). So basically, if we refer to a horn as forcing that same woofer to "squeeze the air" out of it, it will be 10 Times FASTER than when we don't use a horn. Same is true for the ESS Heil Tweeter, which uses a short conical horn coupled to a Literal "air squeezer" for superior transient response.
From a statement by Roy Delgado, Klipsch's Chief Engineer (2007): "Paul Klipsch taught us that if a cone moves, it produces distortion. The greatest cone movement happens in the woofer section of the sound, yet, it's the last place where most people choose to horn load a driver."
Bill Fitzmaurice being the exception, of course, along with Roy himself!
Edits: 09/22/22Follow Ups:
Interesting take: so you're saying essentially that "politeness" is related to speed in a way (slower feels more polite). I'm not sure that's the case as I have auditioned systems with large woofers (so have to move a lot) that are not "polite" at all and the other way around. Maybe it has to do with decay though and how a note is finished: a longer, rounder decay could be the case - just speculating here.
It depends on the "horsepower to mass ratio." of the drivers. To show that I practice what I preach by putting my time and money where my keyboard is, I offer the following:I just designed an MTM (actually a WTW) type (D'Appolito configuration) speaker from 5x5 Baltic Birch into a Bass Reflex cabinet.
It's twin 15" Pro Woofers have a response out to 5,000 Hz. with high BL and low mass, although they will not be called upon to work above 800-900 Hz. (I have yet to do the crossover). Remembering Paul Klilpsch comment on a wide band compression driver he was testing: "If a driver can do 18 Khz. then it can more easily do 9 Khz.............(approximate quote)."
I have EdgarHorn Titan II's with a time aligned top end as my benchmark, so it will come close to that performance, with 6 db less sensitivity, which will be verified by curves and some good ears.
Reasonably close dispersion angles between woofers and horn, along with time alignment will be part of the choice as to where they split the signal.
In between the "twins" will be a Faital LTH horn with an Eminence 314X with the latest carbon fiber diaphragm technology, so no super tweeter required in a 2-way.
I successfully designed a "double 12" speaker that kicks royal butt in a custom tractrix wood horn cut with a $100,000 CNC machine and built by a friend to rave reviews by everyone who heard them (except me). So I'm building a larger box with 15's for lower IM distortion and to get an extra 5 hz. or so on the bottom, without sacrificing the top end.
Since 440 Hz. is where most of the output of a symphony orchestra specs out, it's where we need the most cone area to reduce movement and keep Intermodulation Distortion Low.
Sensitivity will be about 100 db @ 2 Volts drive, which more than meets the criteria for High Efficiency here. Of course I will use a Horn Subwoofer below about 40-50 Hz., but it won't be needed for most music.
Edits: 09/23/22 09/23/22
I can't comment on polite versus rude speakers, but without question horns have far lower distortion than direct radiators. That's the result of both lower excursion from the driver and less power from the amp to realize a given SPL. If you can directionally locate a direct radiating subwoofer that's crossed over at 100Hz or lower it's because you're hearing above passband distortion. That almost never occurs with a folded horn sub.
One comment for the OP, beware of audio snake oil. I noticed your comment about silver wire. It doesn't do anything except to empty your bank account. Silver does have 10% lower resistance than copper, but all that means is that it takes 10% larger copper conductors than silver to realize the exact same result.
"One comment for the OP, beware of audio snake oil. I noticed your comment about silver wire. It doesn't do anything except to empty your bank account. Silver does have 10% lower resistance than copper, but all that means is that it takes 10% larger copper conductors than silver to realize the exact same result." Bill Fitzmaurice
I have to add, with a smile on my face, that when you buy copper by the "brick" which is a pound of 0.999 Pure Copper, the metal that is considered to be the small "Impurity" in the copper is..............Silver!!
Except in ignorant audio circles, of course. Where Silver is considered more pure than copper, the total opposite. Now you know why it's such a joke to those who don't have any quasi-religious beliefs about metallurgy and it's terminology or intended performance!
Be they direct or hi eff horn loaded it's all about the quality of construction and implementation.
No free pass on horns or hi eff
BTW almost all of the speakers I hold on high regard are hi eff horn loaded.
And I've heard horn loaded subwoofers that enclosure walls thrum like mad just as a similar poorly braced infinite baffles. Again quality and implementation are as important
With the exception of Eminent Technology's TRW-17 Rotary Infra woofer, the three best subwoofers i have experienced were horn loaded
Hi, have you tried silver wires? They sound very different than copper and definitely their difference is not figure (resistance) based. The difference is very clear when you audition them side by side.
I'm an acoustical engineer, of course I've tried silver wire, along with Litz wire and any number of other configurations. There are three factors that influence how wire works: resistance, inductance and capacitance. Silver has lower resistance than copper, but that has no effect on the transfer function. Inductance and capacitance have effect on transfer function, but the conductor material has no influence on capacitance and inductance. Required reading:
Hmmm sounds a bit like the "all amplifiers should sound the same because they just amplify the signal" kind of argument. How do you explain then Kondo san using exclusively silver wire in what is arguably one of the most influential pieces of audio ever designed?
He uses silver because his customers think it will make a difference and are willing to pay the price for it.
Clearly you have drunk the Kool-aid, and since you'd rather argue than learn I won't respond to further posts. I will leave you with a bit of additional required reading, though, totally devoid of snake oil.
Measurements don't say much about the performance of audio equipment: that's why different resistors or capacitors that measure the same sound completely different. A long list of articles doesn't change that and if you can't hear the difference that's ok as well because we all hear in different ways - in a sense you're a happy man because you don't have to go through the pains the rest of us have to go through.
You are wasting your time. Cable skeptics will always have the last word, you know, because "measurements".
Hell, even the 15 inches of wire between my passive crossovers and my drivers make a tremendous difference (going from Belden 9497 to solid core Neotech UP-OCC was like cleaning a window covered in 10 years dust) but DON'T MENTION IT or someone will jump at your throat....and the fact that the audio cable business is so flourishing just means one thing: there's greed on one side and idiots on the other side (an incredibly high number of idiots, if you ask me, but we will always be on the wrong side of the fence, because measurements, so we will always be the idiots, and we will always lose this conversation!)
Most people couldn't tell a Kondo amplifier from a Best Buy Onkyo during a blind test, because a blind tests puts you in such competitive and stressful condition that it acts negatively on your perceptions - psychoacoustics and bias work both ways, but no one ever mentions it of course. The only way to assess the benefits of a cable is to plug it in your system, and listen to it for a long period just like you would do with any component.
Rant over, and NO I'm not going any deeper in this argument, but YES silver cable can help an overly smooth / polite system, and I know where I stand on the matter.
Have a great day everyone.
Edits: 09/25/22
As if a 10% difference in expensive conductivity (with greater oxidation potential) could ever be noticed in the dynamic test of music.
Moving a speaker by 1/10th of a meter from it's initial position will make a far greater difference than wire conductivity, and that would certainly be audible by any measure.
I have greater faith in measurements (required in speaker design) than I do unproven opinions from people who choose to ignore the truth or are afraid to find out they wasted their money.
Buy more MUSIC!
Thanks for your comment, agree! Especially important is long-term listening: I find the A/B tests are not helpful at all and the only way to real understand the character of a component is listening to it for a period of time.
Ah yes, the oh so typical "I'm a golden ear and you're not" comment by people with no will or access to an AB/X box.
If Paul W Klipsch were alive today, he would hand you one of his "Bullshit" buttons.
I propose that the ONLY thing long term listening does is what I call:
"LISTENER BREAK IN" as opposed to the the usual, fully exaggerated "Speaker Break In." Just because a greater number of people propagate Audio Myths than those who use Science to prove them wrong, doesn't make them Right, just more popular.
You can stop pulling the P.W. Klipsch argument, as much as I respect the man and the brand for its general history and philosophy (very high efficiency) his "no bullshit" approach was partly responsible for putting on the market some of the "honkiest", screechiest speakers in stock form. We both know it, as we both are members of the Klipsch forums, and you're very actively proposing upgrades (very good upgrades, and I thank you for that). But years have passed and thankfully engineers at Klipsch have moved on from the 1940's.
Paying attention to acoustics and speaker placement shouldn't stop you from trying different cables, both things aren't mutually exclusive, and "fancy cables" don't have to cost thousands. Yawn.
Let's agree to disagree on this, no one is forcing you or anyone else to buy audiophile cables, but please let's respect everyone.
"We both know it, as we both are members of the Klipsch forums, and you're very actively proposing upgrades (very good upgrades, and I thank you for that). But years have passed and thankfully engineers at Klipsch have moved on from the 1940's."
Ah, yes more opinions with gross exaggerations. Paul Klipsch was 36 in 1940, and died in 2002, he was actively involved with the Jubilee bass bin design, along with the tractrix horn that went on top of it as a 2-way system. Suggesting that he did not progress in the following 62 years is not even in the same conversation. He was fully aware and made use of better drivers and higher order networks, including modern DSP Xovers with Time Delay features.
What I MOSTLY object to is the FACT that there are speaker cables, with a free bottle of snake oil, that were priced at $15,000 and higher. The guy who bought my Khorns in 2007 sold his "used" cables for the same price he paid me for my Klipschorns.
So I don't care what kind of "stupid money" is being spent out there, just like all the people that play their systems at "stupid loud" levels at concerts.
In PRINCIPLE and Actuality, I want no part of either one. Now about Capactitors.....................
It bears seeing again from time to time.
Ethan Winer's cable NULL tester would be almost as feared as the dreaded AB/X box (which I experienced when I was a kid member of the AES in Mich).
Ethan Winer does not require a BS filter.
I have no problem with people buying whatever cables they want. But even the most "polite" (meaning low efficiency direct radiators) of which I heard about 30 pairs over the weekend, simply do NOT need enough copper to jump start a locomotive. It a simple RLC issue, nothing more.Besides I'd rather talk about the best high efficiency speaker designer of modern times, Tom Danley or Danley sound labs. My SH-50's only use 18 AWG wire inside.
But to quote PWK one more time when I asked him why the 1985 Khorns were using Monster Cable in their Crossovers, his reply: "It's the marketing people who want this. It's a waste of good copper just to drive 30 AWG wire in a woofer voice coil."
Another fact ignored by the quasi-religious folks about wires.
Edits: 09/28/22 09/28/22
I think a good day with an ABX box would humble you and teach you lessons you are unwilling to learn otherwise.
Bill, thanks for posting the link to the speaker wire article. It only served to confirm what I had long since decided for myself, but it is nice to have an expert agree with me about speaker wire for a change compared to all the audio magazine reviewers who would call me a tin eared apostate for my conservative view on ultra expensive speaker wires. In my experience speaker wire terminals or connectors are quite important. Speaker wires less so if they meet the needed basic electrical parameters.P.S. I am still loving my HT Tuba woofer horns you designed.
I dream of an America where a chicken can cross the road without having it's motives questioned.
Edits: 09/23/22 09/23/22
Audio magazines and websites exist for the purpose of making money, which comes from advertising. Wire manufacturers and sellers are major advertisers, so they're not going to bite the hand that feeds them with honest reviews. An honest review would have to include measured speaker response results where the only difference is the wire. The very few instances where that has been done have shown that not only do high priced wires not work better, they often work worse than plain old zip cord.
I had a club meeting at my house, a guy brought a half dozen sets of expensive speaker wire, which he swapped out and extolled the difference of each, particularly the bass.
Little did he know, I had moved the crossovers out of the cabinet that morning, and the wires were a bit too short to the woofer. To be ready for the meeting, I simply used 12 gauge romex and wire nuts.
Tom Brennan always said he wanted the patent on 'audiophile wire nuts' after that.
Back for a bit again. Ignore me if you like.
Ahh, those were the days. Now I use chinless Monitor Audios with 5" woofers. And they sound pretty good. I recently bought Altec 890C Boleros with the mighty 406-8C woofers but alas, they fall down in clarity and liveliness compared to the MAs. I bought new caps for the Boleros but didn't install them; maybe that would help. Maybe some better compression drivers and horns in place of the Bolero's Hepner would help more.
There are more Copper Snakes than Snake Oil.
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